Platoons: NL vs. AL (Mench related, mostly)

[JonnyLungs]

A topic that has been crossing my mind this offseason as we ponder what to do with the LF situation is platooning differences between leagues. An option thrown out there that doesn't require the Brewers to sign anybody or trade away anybody is the Gross/Mench platoon. Based on the two players' respective platoon splits, it'd make all the sense in the world. But what keeps troubling me is that when looking at Mench in particular, his overall numbers are very underwhelming, especially in the OBP department.

 

I guess the problem I have is that it seems to be almost impossible to have a true strict platoon in the National League due to the need to pinch hit for the pitcher. If Mench starts versus a LHP, and a right handed pitcher comes in, ideally he would be pinch hit for. But doing this would lead to burning through the bench too quickly. Hence, Mench would end up still facing a lion's share of RHP. Last year he had 132 at-bats vs. RHP compared to 156 at-bats vs. LHP. I do realize there was a stretch where he was starting against RHP, but still, he had 132 at-bats too many against RHP last year.

 

I guess it's all fine and dandy to look at platoon splits in forming a platoon, but the overall numbers tell a different story, especially with a guy like Mench. I have a hard time feeling comfortable going into next season with a player that had a .305 OBP last season and a career OBP of .325 getting any significant at-bats at a premium offensive position like left field. Especially with the money he will be getting.

 

We like to focus in on how he mashes lefties, which he does. Nobody can doubt that. But to me it is painfully obvious that he would still get a significant amount of at-bats against RHP that would render his offensive output as very mediocre. Strict platooning doesn't seem to be an option and it doesn't really jive with what Ned Yost has done in the past anyway.

 

Any thoughts?

[MJLiverock]

I worry more about using Gross as the "everyday" platoon guy vs. RH pitching more than Mench as the "everyday" platoon guy vs. LH Pitching.

 

Last year Mench versus LH pitching and Gross verus RH pitching:

 

06 OBP 06 OPS 07 OBP 07 OPS Career OBP Career OPS

Mench .364 .876 .343 .901 .361 .924 (704 AB)

Gross .400 .908 .328 .788 .350 .784 (558 AB)

 

 

Somehow when I look at these numbers I am not blown away by Gross's supposed great advantage in OBP or offensive production in a platoon situation. I don't think Gross is terrible vs. RH (he is vs. LH) but I just don't see any prodcution that says he should be counted on to be a major player on a team with playoff hopes. Granted I don't want to see either of them play versus the weak side of their platoon but Mench seems to live up more to his dominating one side of his splits. I wouldn't expect anymore than a .780 OPS out of Gross playing his platoon role which really isn't that impressive for a platoon guy playing to his strengths. Not horrible just not great.

[sbrylski]

That's an excellent point, and also the note about Yost. He would never pull Jenkins or Mench when the opposition brought in a pitcher to face them.

[brettac1]

Gross has better on base skills, based on his walk rate. In 558 AB's against RHP's, he's got 77 BB in 558 AB's. Mench, against LHP, has walked 60 times in 704 AB's. AVG is important in these dicussions, Gross has carried an OBP of almost .090 points higher than his AVG for his career, Mench has one .056 points higher.

 

Basically, Mench needs more "hit luck" (AKA a high batting average) to carry a decent OBP than Gross does, because he doesn't walk as much. If that makes sense.

[TooLiveBrew]

The more I think about our LF situation for '08, and weigh the yostiness involved, the more I beg DM & Co. to get a guy that can be trusted against both LHP & RHP. At this point, I want to see Kearns or Church next year quite badly. It is nice to know, however, that our 'worst case' LF option (Gross/Mench) isn't too bad itself.

 

I know it still counts, but how much of Gross's downgrade in RHP production was due to his horridly slow start?

[JohnBriggs12]

JohnnyLungs makes some great points. Burning pinch hitters for position players when you have a short bench to start with by carrying 12 pitchers handcuffs an already weak manager.

 

It's even worse when one potential pinch hitter is used for defensive purposes (Counsell for Braun) late in games.

 

That's why Randy Winn looks even more like an option worth pursuing.

[Tbadder]

The bottom line here is that a Gross/Mench platoon is inadequate for a championship team. Gross/Mench is no imporvement, and by way of my thinking, even somewhat of a regression on a team that couldn't make the playoffs in the weakest division in baseball. If there's not major compensation/improvement elsewhere in the line-up what's the point of this conversation? Really, think about it. Get a visual, imagine it: Gross and Mench hoisting a world series trophy in a locker sprayed down with champagne. See? You can't do it. It makes no sense. It's even a little laughable. We need a real leftfielder in a marketplace where none is available outwardly.

[endaround]

Yeah you need a real good player like Scott Podsednik in the outfield to win the World Series!

[TooLiveBrew]

You can't do it. It makes no sense. It's even a little laughable. We need a real leftfielder in a marketplace where none is available outwardly.

 

This blanket statement (about any position, not just LF) has never made sense to me. If Gross & Mench could post a combined OPS north of .800, what's so funny? I know nothing's a given, but that duo should be over .800.

 

Gross's BABIP was .257 in '07, his BAwRISP was .170 - both will likely swing back up in 2008 - upping his BA & OBP. If you throw even a median-type OBP (.370) from Gross's career (including minors) together with just the .437 he slugged in 2007, you're over .800. That doesn't even account for the extra SLG resulting from a higher BABIP. Pair that with Mench's .900-ish OPS v. LHP, and you're getting quite a bit of production from LF. Again, why is that funny?

[brettac1]

Platoons are awesome, especially when your team has budget constraints. Guys that get labeled "platoon players" tend to be inexpensive and pretty readily available. A bunch of great championship teams had platoons at various positions, but especially in the OF. Earl Weaver was the master of the art. The Hardball Times did a terrific series of articles on platoons in the past month or so.

 

I do agree that it's harder to platoon nowadays because of the bloated bullpen, which THT mentions as the reason for the decline in their deployment.

[MJLiverock]

Gross has better on base skills, based on his walk rate. In 558 AB's against RHP's, he's got 77 BB in 558 AB's. Mench, against LHP, has walked 60 times in 704 AB's. AVG is important in these dicussions, Gross has carried an OBP of almost .090 points higher than his AVG for his career, Mench has one .056 points higher.

 

Basically, Mench needs more "hit luck" (AKA a high batting average) to carry a decent OBP than Gross does, because he doesn't walk as much. If that makes sense.

For his career Mench still has a higher OBP versus LH than the supposed on base machine of Gross vs. RH. (.361 vs. .350) Yes it is true that Mench relies more on BA than BB's but also slugs almost 130 pts better at .563 vs. .434. I also noticed that 25 of Gross's BB's come from hitting in the 8 hole, a lot of that appears to be from his AL days so there wasn't a pitcher behind him but undoubtedly it wasn't someone who was a very good hitter especially if Mr. .245 BA was in front of him so he may have been pitched around situationally. So basically love for Gross is his ability to hope a pitcher can't throw a strike over Mench's ability to hit the ball well enough to get on base?

 

I guess I am puzzled by the constant love of Gross on the board and hatred of Mench when anyway I look at it Mench has been a better platoon guy than Gross. Gross just takes a few more walks but if he does swing the bat most likely something bad happens. How long before pitchers realize I can groove this guy because he ain't going to do much with it? If Gross' eye is so good he must not be swinging at bad pitches and is therefore already only swinging at good pitches.

 

I am just not that impressed by an all walk no hit corner outfielder. I see the hatred of Gwynn because he has no power and just relies on OPB skills but for some reaseon Gross gets love for it while playing inferior defense.

 

I am fine with Gross as a 4th OF but I don't want to see him play everyday. His .328 OBP last year vs. RH was inline with Estrada (.321 vs. LH).

 

 

[Big Reed]

should i mention here that Crawford hit both righties and lefties with a .315+ average? or should I save that for another thread elsewhere?

 

needless to say, I hate platoons and I love guys who can play 162 games. I think the combined production from a platoon is vastly overrated and platoon players as well. If you have a talented guy to begin with , you don't need a platoon.

[DrWood]

should i mention here that Crawford hit both righties and lefties with a .315+ average? or should I save that for another thread elsewhere?

 

needless to say, I hate platoons and I love guys who can play 162 games. I think the combined production from a platoon is vastly overrated and platoon players as well. If you have a talented guy to begin with , you don't need a platoon.

It would be great if you have 8 guys that can excel every day regardless of who is pitching, stages of the moon, the tides...

but it's not a realistic notion. In the real world, platoons are great. Plenty of LH hitters do squat vs. LH pitchers, and plenty of RH hitters are mediocre vs.RH pitchers (typically you have to be at least a little good vs. RH pitchers to be a major league player).

Putting a guy in a position where he is likely to succeed is one of the biggest parts of managing.

 

 

[Baldkin]

1) Gwynn doesn't walk, he won't be an OBP guy unless he hits .320.

 

2) Gross can hit. He also takes a pitch from time to time (something Mench never does).

 

3) A lot of the Mench-hate comes from Yost's misuse of him last year: he had almost as many ABs vs RHP as he did vs LHP, dispite us having 3 LH hitting OF's on the team for most of the year. Also, at 4mil+ he's expensive for a guy who will get ~200 AB's in an ideal situation.