Andruw Jones

[twobrewers]

I think the presumption that signing Jones would move Hal to 3b and Braun to LF

First off, I don't think there is anyway Jones ends up in Milwaukee. Personality-wise and tool-set wise he just doesn't really seem to fit what we are looking for. So this point is likely moot.

 

But I am fairly confident that signing Jones would not result in Hall moving to 3B. Last year, when they moved Hall off of 3B they initially wanted to move him to LF and sign a CF. Since they couldn't get a CF, they moved Hall to CF. I don't see any reason why Jones would result in Braun in the OF. (If that was the case, Braun would be moving to the OF regardless)

[Tbadder]

I believe the Brewers will sign Jones, trade for Blalock, and move LaPorta to catcher!

[danzig6767]

I think the presumption that signing Jones would move Hal to 3b and Braun to LF

First off, I don't think there is anyway Jones ends up in Milwaukee. Personality-wise and tool-set wise he just doesn't really seem to fit what we are looking for. So this point is likely moot.

 

But I am fairly confident that signing Jones would not result in Hall moving to 3B. Last year, when they moved Hall off of 3B they initially wanted to move him to LF and sign a CF. Since they couldn't get a CF, they moved Hall to CF. I don't see any reason why Jones would result in Braun in the OF. (If that was the case, Braun would be moving to the OF regardless)

1. If Melvin thought Jones was such a bad fit, why bother even calling Boras to see what's going on with Jones?

 

2. I'd put the odds at about 90/10 that if we somehow ended up signing Jones, Hall would end up at third and Braun in left. The only way i'd see Jones in CF and Hall LF/Braun 3rd is if we put Braun in LF during spring training and it went very poorly.

[twobrewers]

I'd put the odds at about 90/10 that if we somehow ended up signing Jones, Hall would end up at third and Braun in left. The only way i'd see Jones in CF and Hall LF/Braun 3rd is if we put Braun in LF during spring training and it went very poorly.

Maybe I am just missing something.

 

I understand Jones is a CF. That would require moving Bill Hall. But why would it require moving Bill to 3B and Braun to OF.

 

If that was the case, why wouldn't we already have commited to moving Braun? Corey Hart can play a very adaquate CF. Hall could play 3B as things stand now. Braun would take the other outfield spot and we would be looking for a 3rd outfielder. And finding extra outfielders is much easier than 3B.

1. If Melvin thought Jones was such a bad fit, why bother even calling Boras to see what's going on with Jones?

Leave no stone unturned. Why wouldn't he call? Melvin should call every free agent with any kind of value. I hope he put in a call regarding A-Rod as well. You never know what the market holds, where a player wants to play, and what contract he is willing to settle for. My point was merely that it would be an unlikely match. But of course, for the right dollars - anything can be worked out.

[colbyjack]

A few people have brought up that Jones isn't the best fit given his skills, etc., with some seemingly pointing out that he's not an on-base machine and he strikes out way to much. He does strike out a lot, but he also walks a lot too, and while he doesn't hit for that high of an average, he does manage to get on-base at a relatively consistent clip given his willingness to take pitches (3.75 pitches/PA in his career, higher than that the past few years).

 

Yes, he had a bad year last year, but that came off of a pretty dang good year, and he's a .263/.342/.497 career hitter, and he's a centerfielder, a perennial Gold Glove winning CF. Some claim his defense has been on the decline, but there's not real statistical evidence of that from what I can tell.

 

And, he's been amazingly durable throughout his career.

 

I know Scott Boras has claimed that he won't sign a one-year deal, but I remember Boras saying the same thing about Kevin Millwood until he finally signed the deal he did with Texas (a deal they may regret). Jones may have to sign a one-year deal in an attempt to reclaim his previous value, and that alone could make him a very good one-year rental investment, as you know he's going to have somewhat of a chip on his shoulder.

 

I'm not saying I'm all for Jones, but it is an interesting idea, it does seem to be a fit for the team on a lot of different levels, and it would show a willingness from ownership/management that they're serious about winning in 2008 (not that matters too much to me, but it does to a lot of other people).

[danzig6767]

colbyjack wrote:I know Scott Boras has claimed that he won't sign a one-year deal, but I remember Boras saying the same thing about Kevin Millwood until he finally signed the deal he did with Texas (a deal they may regret). Jones may have to sign a one-year deal in an attempt to reclaim his previous value, and that alone could make him a very good one-year rental investment, as you know he's going to have somewhat of a chip on his shoulder.

It's not only his poor year hurting Jones in free agency, it was also a bad time for him to hit free agency with Hunter/Rowand/Cameron joining Jones as available centerfielders. There are only a certain number of teams who even have a need at CF along with big funds to pay money like Boras/Jones want. With those other quality available players at his position, Jones could find himself without a team or teams left that will pay him even close to what he wants on a multi-year deal. Then maybe they will decide it's best for him to take a one year deal in hopes Andruw has a better year and/or there won't be a bloated market of available CF's in free agency.

Look at Carlos Lee last offseason. One thing that helped him cash in so big was there were so few middle of the order big bats available in free agency, thus creating competition for his services. This year, teams in the market for a CF aren't looking at free agency and seeing only Jones or spare part types. When the Angels signed Hunter, there went one big market team that i'm sure Boras would have liked to have had bid on Jones. If a team still wants a CF and Boras tries over selling Andruw, that team can pass and talk to Rowand.

 

Initially i thought Boras would never let Jones take a one year deal, now it seem reasonably possible.

[Big Reed]

Jones was a perennial gold glove center fielder. So was ken griffey Jr. Griffey was willing to move. Would Jones be willing to move to left? If jones must play centerfield, I think I'd rather see Hall move to left field and keep braun at third.

 

We all know braun's fielding at third base was a tad suspect last year. What's not being said is that many gold glove fielders were once as bad as braun was their rookie year. A guy named Scott Rolen made 24 errors his rookie season for the phillies. Sheffield made 25 errors his first year playing third base for the brewers. AROD made 24 errors at third in 2006. He cut that down to 13 last year. Cabrera made 17 errors moving from the outfield to third. Eric Chavez made 18 errors his second year. Chipper jones made 25 errors his rookie season. jeter made 22 errors his rookie year and once made 56 errors in one season in the minors. Braun is in pretty good company as a defensive liability at third. but like the others, i think he will improve.

 

if the brewers sign jones, i would hope they sign him to start in center, and move hall to left and leave braun at third.

[dpapo]

"Look for activity to pick up regarding the marquee free-agent center fielders still on the market -- Andruw Jones and Aaron Rowand -- as teams that had been focusing on Torii Hunter will focus on one or the other.

Kansas City and the Los Angeles Dodgers are among the teams considering Jones while Rowand, who was offered arbitration by Philadelphia, is being eyed by no fewer than six teams, including the Dodgers."

 

http://wintermeetings.mlblogs.com/nashvilleconfidential/

[endaround]

Jones was a perennial gold glove center fielder. So was ken griffey Jr. Griffey was willing to move. Would Jones be willing to move to left? If jones must play centerfield, I think I'd rather see Hall move to left field and keep braun at third.

 

We all know braun's fielding at third base was a tad suspect last year. What's not being said is that many gold glove fielders were once as bad as braun was their rookie year. A guy named Scott Rolen made 24 errors his rookie season for the phillies. Sheffield made 25 errors his first year playing third base for the brewers. AROD made 24 errors at third in 2006. He cut that down to 13 last year. Cabrera made 17 errors moving from the outfield to third. Eric Chavez made 18 errors his second year. Chipper jones made 25 errors his rookie season. jeter made 22 errors his rookie year and once made 56 errors in one season in the minors. Braun is in pretty good company as a defensive liability at third. but like the others, i think he will improve.

 

if the brewers sign jones, i would hope they sign him to start in center, and move hall to left and leave braun at third.

1). Errors are a terrible way to measure defense.

 

2). None those players were not anywhere close to being as bad as Braun. Braun and Manny Ramirez are in competition to be crowned the worst fielder in the major leagues.

 

[aracko]

It was ONLY Brauns 2nd year at 3b! We really need to cut him some slack over there.

[Tbadder]

I would in general agree with your patience argument with Braun's glove, but the Crew's defense is so bad at 1B, 2B, CF, C, and yes I'll say it, SS that they need to do something radical. It's too bad really. But there's no way to improve at any of those positions with the exception of 2B or signing a new CF.

[DuWayne Steurer]

2). None those players were not anywhere close to being as bad as Braun. Braun and Manny Ramirez are in competition to be crowned the worst fielder in the major leagues.

 

Exactly. Braun was historically bad. I remember someone posting that Braun had the worst fielding percentage of any 3B over the last 30 years. Coupled with his Range Factor and Zone Rating both being very subpar, I don't think there's any comparison between Braun and the other players mentioned.

 

[Fatter than Joey]

What's not being said is that many gold glove fielders were once as bad as braun was their rookie year.

 

THIS IS FALSE! -- There is nothing remotely true about this.

 

Exactly. Braun was historically bad. I remember someone posting that Braun had the worst fielding percentage of any 3B over the last 30 years.

 

Actually -- Braun was the worst since 1910. There have been a lot of Wes Helms in that time span, all better than Braun.

[And That]

It was ONLY Brauns 2nd year at 3b! We really need to cut him some slack over there.

No, the Brewers need to play better defense and win baseball games. We might be able to cut him some slack if we were coming off a 60 win season, but unfortunately we're a pretty good team. Braun was historically bad at third base defensively. Think Mark McGwire hitting home runs, only instead of Mark McGwire, it's Ryan Braun, and instead of home runs, it is really bad defensive plays.

 

[aracko]

I really disagree. Brauns main issue headed into spring training last year was his throwing. That is no longer an issue, so from that point of view, he has made big improvements.

 

I dont see people here complaining about Prince - who finished last in Range Factor and first in errors. Again - I go back to David Wright in 2005 as a comparison and now has a Gold Glove on his mantle.

 

A few weeks ago people had confidence in Braun taking the necessary improvements - citing Ned Yost suggesting he take 1000 Ground balls per day. Does anyone know if he is doing this?

 

Now suddenly Braun agrees that if it helps the team he will move to LF and he is no longer good enough to play 3b. I dont get it. After the season he had with the bat, he deserves another shot at 3rd base. Changing positions often times screws with players offense.

[twobrewers]

I dont see people here complaining about Prince - who finished last in Range Factor and first in errors.

That is a fair point. Prince is pretty bad as well. In truth, his inability to dig a few balls out of the dirt hurts the rest of our subpar infield.

 

However, we have no other option with Prince. He can't play anywhere but 1B. That is the basis of the Braun discussion. We might be able to put him someplace where he has a better chance to succeed.

[Invader3K]

Well, just looking from the basic standpoint of the fact that you usually see more right handed batters than left handed ones, a bad third baseman is more problematic than a bad first baseman.

 

However, when your first baseman hits 50 dingers, it's hard to really complain about any aspect of his game at that point.

[And That]

Now suddenly Braun agrees that if it helps the team he will move to LF and he is no longer good enough to play 3b.

No, he hasn't been good enough to play 3B ever since he began playing 3B.

As for your David Wright comparison, Wright's RZR by year since 2004: .746, .724, .671, .689.

Braun's RZR last season: .564. Which is not surprising, given that someone else mentioned Braun had the worst year fielding by a third baseman in ~95 years. That's not a cutting slackable offense. That's a get the heck off of a position you have no place playing offense.

 

But Andruw Jones... probably not.

[Fatter than Joey]

I dont see people here complaining about Prince - who finished last in Range Factor and first in errors.

 

Prince is a below average 1b. The difference is, is that Prince can only play 1b, there really is not a discussion worth having about Prince playing in the OF. Also given the fact that Prince is a subpar 1b, probably becomes a great argument for having a better 3b.

 

Brauns main issue headed into spring training last year was his throwing. That is no longer an issue, so from that point of view, he has made big improvements.

 

Braun has a lot of issues at 3b -- If he has already made big improvements, he wouldn't be taking 1000 GBs a day in the off-season.

 

Again - I go back to David Wright in 2005 as a comparison and now has a Gold Glove on his mantle.

 

Gah! -- People keep saying things like this -- and they are simply not true. First -- Ryan Braun is Ryan Braun. Ryan Braun is not David Wright, he is not Brooks Robinson or Scott Rolen. You can't just look at one players successes/failures and then superimpose them on Braun.

 

People have thrown out just about every HOF and GG winning 3b as evidence that Braun will be a good 3b. NONE OF THEM were near or remotely as bad as Braun -- you have to go back to 1910 to find someone that played 3b as poorly as Braun in a full-time basis. If you think Braun should be left at 3b, that's AOK, I understand that POV -- but please, let's stop generating things like "(Insert HOF 3b) played as bad as Braun, look how that turned out"

 

A few weeks ago people had confidence in Braun taking the necessary improvements - citing Ned Yost suggesting he take 1000 Ground balls per day. Does anyone know if he is doing this?

 

I am glad Braun is addressing the holes in his game -- however 2 things:

 

1.) Repetition can be a good thing, but oftentimes players can continue to do the bad things and the repetition can enforce it. Also, I don't care if TGJ takes 1000 swings in the cages everyday, he just isn't going to be a power hitter, or even a player that can hit occasional HRs to keep teams honest.

 

2.) I'd rather Braun address holes in his swings, that could be exploited as pitchers adjust to him in 2008.

 

Now suddenly Braun agrees that if it helps the team he will move to LF and he is no longer good enough to play 3b.

 

I don't know that this is true -- I read it as "Braun went to DM" to discuss playing LF. Braun never was good enough to play 3b.

 

After the season he had with the bat, he deserves another shot at 3rd base

 

No -- he doesn't -- Statistically his defense compromises his offensive production -- now we can have grand debates as to the degree -- but there is no question that his defensive liabilities eat a non-trivial chunk of his offensive production. If we put Prince at Catcher, he could probably every year have the "best season a catcher ever had" -- but his defense would certainly call for his expulsion behind the plate.

 

Changing positions often times screws with players offense.

 

Getting benched in late inning games for guys like Counsell screws with your offense as well. Honestly I think the fanbase would cut him a lot of slack in LF in 2008, but they will get pretty impatient with mistakes at 3b rather quickly. If Braun is a bad LFer (much like Prince is a bad 1b) I think the fanbase will understand that, the Brewers are minimizing the damage he can do by putting him in LF.

[Big Reed]

This begs the question as to how bad is laporta's defense? We are going to need jones to make up for al l of our other outfielder defensive lapses.

 

ok, i have another idea to solve braun's defensive problems. petition the league to go back to the AL Central. Swap out wit h the royals if we have to. this would allow the brewers to put either Fielder or braun in the DH slot and improve our defense ten fold.

 

it would be nice if we were fans of a team that never worried about a player's or team's salary structure. it seems a lot of people would love to add jones but feel he's too expensive. i doubt the red Sox fans would say that. it's too bad every time we even think about making a trade or acquiring a free agent, we must bring up the money/salary issue. The reason we love hall is he's good value for the money. the reason we hate Jones is he's overpaid. it's too bad we can't just leave the money issues to guys like melvin and Mr A and just worry about what the player would do on the field.

[JJHardy7]

Have to love the moving Braun debate. Every idea completely shot down because there's no way Braun can be an average 3B. I will let the Brewers decide that. I'm guessing the Brewers probably know what they're doing and Braun would've already been moved to a different position (in the minors) if they felt he wouldn't be able to handle it.

 

I'm confident that a guy like Ryan will improve due to what I've seen in his hard work and determination. If we acquire a great 3B, that's fine -- move Braun. I just don't think it's out of the question for Braun to improve by significant strides. I won't insert a HOF or GG name here, but I believe Braun physically can play 3B. Can he handle the mental aspect (since I think this is where most of his errors were)? That's a question the Brewers and Braun have to look at.

 

I know there are lots of stats that show Braun didn't help the team that much, etc., but I can honestly say that if Braun was in AAA all last year the Brewers would've been no where near as close to the playoffs as they were. That's my opinion. Counsell playing 3B all year would've cost the Brewers a ton of runs.

[endaround]

Hart is a much better overall athlete than Braun. Hart couldn't play 3B.

 

Believing Braun can become a 3B is like believing TGJ can hit 50 hoe runs with a little more work in the cage.

[And That]

I can honestly say that if Braun was in AAA all last year the Brewers would've been no where near as close to the playoffs as they were.

If Braun would have been in the OF where he should have been, he wouldn't have been in AAA, and the Brewers might well have made the playoffs due to the upgrade he would have provided over the LFs the Brewers trotted out there last year. Not to mention the defensive upgrade at third.

Saying the Brewers have the right to decide where to put him is just fine. They clearly have better insight into Ryan's abilities than any of us on a message board do. This does not, however, make the Brewers' personnel decision making skills infallible, and it just might be possible that they screwed up with Braun. The statistics do not lie - Ryan Braun did not just "not help the team much" defensively at third base, he cost them copious runs and a number games with his defense. His bat made up for some of that, but his bat would not have had to make up for any of that if he had played in the outfield.

 

[Fatter than Joey]

Every idea completely shot down because there's no way Braun can be an average 3B.

 

It's not as if there is no way that Braun could be average -- just that the risk/reward is viewed by some as a bad one -- If this was 2002, and the Brewers were out of playoff contention then I would be AOK, with rolling the dice -- the problem is, is that we are in a situation where one or two games may break our playoff hopes in 2008. There is very little (if any) history that a guy as bad as Braun could become average in the space of 1 season.

 

I'm guessing the Brewers probably know what they're doing and Braun would've already been moved to a different position (in the minors) if they felt he wouldn't be able to handle it.

 

The Brewers thought Grant Balfour and Greg Aquino would be able to handle it as well. They make mistakes. Many, many scouts suggested that Braun was not a MLB 3b.

 

Counsell playing 3B all year would've cost the Brewers a ton of runs.

 

Counsell played a lot of 3b when he replaced Braun in games -- It's not as if we never saw Counsell again once Braun hit the scene.

 

There are a couple of ways to skin this cat --

 

We can get a guy like Rolen, or we can get a guy like Jones that could replace Hall and then have Hall replace Braun -- the fact that DM is exploring both probably gives him more leverage.

[aracko]

Dodgers offer 2 years at 32 Million - 16 per season makes his cost outweigh his value. Milwaukee would likely have to do even better than that, because most guys would rather play in LA than Milwaukee 8 days a week.

 

I think I can close my personal Andruw Jones as a Brewer "fantasy".