You Have To Give To Get, Kids

[molitor fan]

I think that those that want to take part in this forum, for all its warts, should do so as long as there is some element of differentiation between the " Hey, look at what I thought up" stuff, and the true information gleaned from other sources.

 

I will say that the adopt a prospect idea was a wonderful one that was basically shut down to protect the clarity of information coming from the site. I think this off-season on brewerfan would have been a great deal more interesting if this feature would have been endorsed.

[strawbossisevil]

Sorry, but I don't get the first post. It seems to fit the definition of elitist.

 

Many people may be newer here, and excited as we are approaching a very big offseason for our club. They may not quite understand what value certain players might have in a trade. It's a learning process. If you don't want to see the grand idea of how we can afford AROD or Miguel Cabrera, just pass on the thread, simple as that.

 

The people writing the threads are convinced that the offers would be valid. To me, this seems like a slap at their intelligence (as does calling them kids). We are all learning. Some of us have devoted our lives to baseball, others are newer to following the sport this closely. It's important that the people who devote so much of their time be patient with the newer people so that we can learn together. Otherwise, the situation here will not be conducive to new posters who don't know all that much yet.

 

As a language teacher, this seems like someone who is fluent with a language criticizing a beginner for making a mistake. Mistakes are the best way to learn, and that applies to more areas than just languages, but to all areas of life. If we aren't given the opportunity to make mistakes, we will not learn or improve.

 

One option could be that you could make a separate Trade Rumors forum for the posters who you think make smart offers. That way you can leave the newer "kids" to make their less than smart suggestions without having to endure the terrors of horrible suggestions yourselves. It would be elitist, but it would make life easier for the advanced posters, since they wouldn't have to waste their time reading threads with bad suggestions.

[Roscoe Chill]

Come on. No one is being an elitist. He's just calling out the SUPERSTAR from Team A for one decent piece on the Brewers and five players that are no longer wanted trade proposals. Quantity does not equal quality. The title of this thread says it all. And obviously some posters need to think about this. It's a reasonable request.

[wallus]

Bad trades never happen in real life? Aramis Ramiez trade? AJ Pierzsynski? There are many trade offers that would get laughed off by this site that DO happen in real life. So please do not act like you know it all.

[TooLiveBrew]

It's surprising to me the amount of venom that this thread has generated. I'm shocked, quite frankly.

 

It is very easy to not read them in the first place or like others have said, offer up your own ideas.

 

No offense, but MassHaas puts in an incredible amount of time providing coverage on the Brewers (typically those branches below MLB). My guess is that if he had more time, he'd be weighing in quite a bit more often.

 

The notion that this is elitist is ignoring the valid concern MH brought to light in his original post. It's not elitist to ask people to do just the smallest amount of homework. There are plenty of forums & websites that don't bother with that at all, so it's not like there's a shortage in that regard. If you want to start a thread, shouldn't you do enough work to make sure it's not an 8-post thread? Obviously the count of posts is not directly related to its quality, but you get what I'm saying. Even if it turns out to be a short thread, at least provide something to consider.

 

Imho those who find Mass's assertion offensive/elitist are broadening his brushstrokes. No one is suggesting that we all rate - or that the mods rate - each thread to determine if it sucks or is awesome. Just that if you can stop and take 30 seconds and realize the trade suggestion is really not well-balanced, either don't post it (a post that, intentionally or not, waits for two or three posts away to point out its lack of objectivity), or refine your thought. I personally don't find it offensive to suggest that people should think through an idea. It makes discussion much more stimulating.

[strawbossisevil]

It's offensive to think people aren't thinking through their posts in the first place. That's the point. While to some, a post may go against all common sense, we understand it as such because we have a certain level of experience. I appreciate a lot of what MH does, but personally I feel like he was out of line with his post. He's assuming that other people are not taking posting thoughts as seriously as other. That's elitist, no matter how much you spin it.

 

Yes, those thread may be irritating to some of us who have certain levels of experience. I know that I would never make the suggestions I originally made in the Trade Rumors two years ago. It's because I've learned more and more what value our players have. But I got to where I am now by making the mistakes I made in the past. The same is true for a lot of the better posters on this site, many who started out here not having a lot of experience and who have learned through mistakes.

 

Also, many of those threads are fun, in that they are daydreaming out loud. Yeah, it's dubious that we'd be able to make a package that would bring us Cabrera or Santana. But sometimes it's fun to put seriousness aside, and just dream. I imagine we all have had different dreams of having our favorite players join the Brewers through the trading of a number of different pieces. Let's not throw the beginners under the bus, by claiming that they aren't even thinking out their posts (for some they may be thinking them through, but just don't understand the value of certain players as well as more advanced posters do) or for daydreaming out loud. Patience. If you don't like the thread, pass on it, simple as that.

[TooLiveBrew]

This is part of the misconception, I think. MH (or anyone else) never suggested that you can't do the 'dream big' posts, just that they aren't Vargas + TGJ + ZJ for [big Star].

 

He's assuming that other people are not taking posting thoughts as seriously as other. That's elitist, no matter how much you spin it.

 

No it's not. Just because someone questions whether or not people are putting some homework behind their thread(s) doesn't mean any assumption. The only way it's 'inherently elitist' is if you assume the most tyrannical manifestation/manipulation of Mass's original post. There was nothing like that to be found. Do you really think it's unreasonable to assume that not everyone puts in the same amount of background in trade proposals? He's not asking for a dissertation, just a bit of light reading.

 

EDIT: I know that I would never make the suggestions I originally made in the Trade Rumors two years ago.

 

Ditto for me, too. But even when I was less educated on the ever-expanding world of stats (not by any means saying I'm anywhere above entry-level), I took time to try & make sure any proposal/response I offered was at least plausible. And from my recollection from last offseason, you did too, strawboss.

[mothershipconnection]

It's not elitist to ask people to do just the smallest amount of homework.

 

Yep, baseball reference and mlb4u.com are both free sites. This isn't about threads about how awesome it'd be to score a certain player and asking what it'd take to get him; it's about suggesting a team would get rid of a superstar or top prospect for spare parts that some people here have said should be DFA'd.

Just look at top prospects lists, and then eliminate any of the top 25 as returns for Claudio Vargas or Derrick Turnbow. Also, consider that desperation moves are typically made at the deadline (e.g. Kazmir for Martinez) when teams will either grossly overpay for a scrub or get rid of quality players they don't think they can re-sign for a low payoff rather than seeing them walk.

[strawbossisevil]

Obviously, we'll have to agree to disagree. And looking at the first page of Trade Rumors, there are really not all that many of those threads as some might think. Even the Cabrera thread included us giving up Villanueva. A few of you have dramatized just how bad the suggestions have been. Is it really that hard to see how someone could overvalue a pitcher like Villy, whose had nothing but success to this point in the Majors? And who is thinking that the Marlins need pitching?

 

Like I said, it's not about a lack of research. It's about a lack of experience. And it's not nearly as bad as some of you are making it out to be. It is very natural for people to overvalue our own players, especially people who have limited experience with MLB or the Minor League system. The key is to be patient with people, not in their face about things. Experience will bring improvements. It's easy to be judgmental when coming from a position of more experience and knowledge.

[TooLiveBrew]

The key is to be patient with people, not in their face about things.

 

True, but to be fair, Mass said something along the lines of 'nipping this in the bud.' As in, there aren't necessarily a ton of threads that meet the criteria yet, but there were enought to make him think about it getting worse further into the offseason. I don't think anyone's really overstating that there are numerous really unbalanced trade proposals made each year.

 

Your point about patience is very astute - and very true. However, if there is to be extra patience invoked, why not ask more of those who still have much to learn, too? If nothing else, Mass's purpose in starting this thread has clearly been realized. That's a good thing for everyone.

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Fatter than Joey]

First off -- I am hoping we can get past the whole "elitist" angle of this thread. Mass Haas is not only (IMO) the most important contributor on this site, he seems to me to be one of the site's nicest guys. Even if you really think that this original post is elitist, if one person deserves the benefit of the doubt, or should get a free pass its Mass Haas. It's the beginning of the "trade rumor season" and I think it is certainly reasonable to suggest at this point that everyone make their best effort, do some research, etc...

 

Where the "elitist" talk has a lot of grab, is in the secondary level of posts where some posters seem to feel the need that every trade proposal needs their stamp of approval. If you find a trade proposal to be ludicrous or unlikely, I don't understand why it just can't be ignored, if no one posts on a thread, it will fall by the wayside -- and sometimes remember that life can be stranger than fiction.

[chuckiehacks]

I don't have a problem with unrealistic trade threads, as they ususally turn into an informed discussion of what it would take to get a deal done.

 

What I find ironic is that a moderator is calling out posters for starting dream trade threads when this website's most proud day was being mentioned on ESPNews for a "Could we get Santana" thread.

[homer]

Yeah I wish I hadn't even used the word 'elitest' in my first post even though I wasn't calling anyone that word. I've been on the site for 5 years now and I know how much work everyone puts in - especially Mass - and to be honest my first take on his post was that there would be locking of threads if the proposal was ridiculous. After re-reading that post and others I can see that is not the case and so while I don't see the harm in someone putting out a goofy trade idea, I can see his point.

 

Having said that, yes some research could be done to make a valid trade ideas, but could you also say that research needs to be done when claiming RBIs or saves are great metrics by which to judge a player? At what point is something opinion vs. fact? Just throwing that out there for argument's sake.

[Katuluu]

I hate Jim for pointing out he's older then me. Much, much older.

[Fatter than Joey]

At what point is something opinion vs. fact? Just throwing that out there for argument's sake.

 

Yeah -- I think this is where the rub actually happens -- It's not the first post, but the secondary level of posts that oftentimes are

way to strong and oftentimes opinion is presented as fact.

 

I hate Jim for pointing out he's older then me. Much, much older.

 

I would think you would hate him more for being much better looking.

[Brian the Automator]

http://borderdogs.com/images/1/productimages/0822s.jpg

 

 

[Hammer]

Honest question: How hard would it be to have separate forums labeled Trade Rumors (have to have a link) and Trad Proposals (ingenious creations of the bfan.net community)? Wouldn't that solve this?

[TooLiveBrew]

I'd be all over that. That's a good idea, Hammer - but probably a lot of extra work (?).

[Brian the Automator]

It's actually not a lot of extra work, but we're pretty anti-new-forum around here, just to keep things manageable.

 

I wish Yuku retained the feature EZBoard had where you could have an Icon for your post (like a Question mark or an Exclamation point, which we could customize). Perhaps if we just enforced a rule that everything had to be prefixed with "RUMOR: " or "PROPOSAL: ", it would make it easier on the reader.

[SoCalBrewfan]

I think a lot could be accomplished with more clarity in thread titles....it would be nice to know if the Blalock thread refers to a proposal by a bf.net poster, a proposal by a media figure, or a 'genuine' trade rumor. (In this case it appears to be the second of the three.)

 

That said, threads can and do morph from their original purpose, and often contain a mix of media rumors, fan speculation, and whatnot. (Some of us are very good at the whatnot.) The Santana thread, for example, seems to be a mix of those.

[SoCalBrewfan]

It should also be said that Jim / Mass is a big big old meany, and a crotchedy old fart, and that we love him, just like that crusty old great uncle who always smells like a mix of ben gay and brandy at the family reunion and scares the heck out of all the little kids. He's also way way older than me, by a whole five years or something...

 

Whatever you do, don't mess with his lawn.

[TooLiveBrew]

The general protocol for a thread title preface works very well in the IGT forum, so I see no reason why it can't work in here, too. I'm all for the RUMOR/PROPOSAL header (or some variant thereof) on new trade forum threads.

[homer]

Agreed. Changing the thread titles is a good idea.

[1992casey]

It's actually not a lot of extra work, but we're pretty anti-new-forum around here, just to keep things manageable.

Just last night, Yuku gave us a "Mimic Forum" button which reduces the time needed to create a new forum from about 3 minutes to about 20 seconds. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

I think there'd be too much overlap between two forums in this case. I think both members and mods would find cases that would be confusing when it comes to getting the right thread into the right forum.

I wish Yuku retained the feature EZBoard had where you could have an Icon for your post (like a Question mark or an Exclamation point, which we could customize).

We can do that. I'll kick it in once I find the icons.

 

I think appropriate thread titling is something that's always helpful, and not just in this forum. A thread title with only a person's name is almost always too ambiguous.

 

And as far as the use of the term, kids, I know Jim's a nice guy, so I figured right away that he was using it as a term of endearment.

[Big Reed]

I used to propose trades that made logical sense, and I would give up talent ot get talent. But in looking at the real trades made in the last 5 years, i found very few trades that were even or logical. perhaps all these strange lopsided trade proposals were closer to reality than the ones I could think of.

 

i would think a Webb for Willis trade would be fair. but I seriously doubt the marlins will get anything close to Webb when they trade Willis. So maybe a Capuano for Willis trade would be a good one to propose.