Bucks beat Cavs in dramatic fashion

[trwi7]

I'm going to the game tonight; I'm hoping to see a bit more of Yi than he played last night (but at least he should be fresh for tonight).

Yi didn't play much last night because he didn't do much. CV outplayed him and deserved the playing time putting up 17 and 9.

 

Redd with a LeBron like night 34/7/6

 

Mo with 20/6/9 with 0 turnovers. Oh don where are you?http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[olliegjw]

Also maybe we can convice Kobe that Milwaukee is a great place to play!

 

Yes, let's show him it's a great place to play by being loud and kicking their butts. Then, we can tell him that we never, ever want him to play for us.

[PrinceFielder28]

I wish i could go tonight...i will be there Tuesday though vs. Pistons...looks like they had a very balanced game!

[Oldcity]

I can't believe how well Mo has played the last few games. I was one of the people ripping on him after the first three games. Also Redd is playing like a superstar. He was one James for pretty much the whole game, and he's also rebounding.

[homer]

Bucks beat Lakers - Mo with 9 assists. I think this team is starting to forge a little bit of an identity.

[bthurley19]

"Williams admitted he thought the team trailed by two."

 

This is why Mo Williams is a terrible point guard. His offensive skills are impressive when he's going right but his decision making and intelligence on the court are not what you look for in a point guard. The Bucks do not need a scoring point guard. They need someone to control the team and control the pace by getting Bogut and Redd good looks. Until Mo is gone or moved to the 2 guard, the Bucks will continue to be a lottery/low seed playoff team.

Okay I'll eat a little crow for my comments after the first few games. Mo is starting to get his teammates involved and unsuprisingly they are winning. I'd rather see Mo with 10-12 points a game and 9-12 assists than with 20-25 points and 4-6 assists. I missed most of the game tonight but caught the end and it looks like they played pretty good defense on Kobe. A little bit of defense and team play can take you a long ways in the NBA (see: Spurs, Pistons).

[don1481]

Mo with 20/6/9 with 0 turnovers. Oh don where are you?http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

 

I'm right here, trwi7. As I said all along, IF Mo can pass and not be a shoot-first PG, the Bucks will win. If he decides to pad his stat line and hoist up a ton of ill-advised shots (see also: Last season and a number of the Bucks' losses this year), they lose.

 

I'm not convinced that Mo will consistently distribute the ball enough to get the Bucks above .500. Maybe these wins will knock some since into him.

[brettac1]

They looked good tonight. I still want to see Yi create more shots for himself, though. He has to realize that passing to Redd is a black hole and to not expect to get the ball back, even if he's open.

[MoneyballMan]

I actually didn't think they looked that great through three quarters (even though they came back in the 2nd quarter). BUT, they still pulled out a win against a pretty tough opponent. That is very encouraging.... Maybe we'll surprise some people this year after all.

[brettac1]

The Lakers defend hard and they are definitely a tough team. Say what you will about Kobe, but the dude leads by example. When your best player plays basically all 48 minutes, and he goes hard on the defensive end, it doesn't give any excuses to any other guy on the team. It's what seperates a great player like Kobe from a good one like Redd.

[tomter38]

I was as big a Redd basher as anyone but you gotta give the guy a little credit, it really seems like he has matured as an all around player. Obviously he still isn't a Kobe Bryant, but he is playing defense and passing the ball at an alarming rate compared to previous years.

[danzig6767]

Mo with 20/6/9 with 0 turnovers. Oh don where are you?http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

 

I'm right here, trwi7. As I said all along, IF Mo can pass and not be a shoot-first PG, the Bucks will win. If he decides to pad his stat line and hoist up a ton of ill-advised shots (see also: Last season and a number of the Bucks' losses this year), they lose.

 

I'm not convinced that Mo will consistently distribute the ball enough to get the Bucks above .500. Maybe these wins will knock some since into him.

 

The thing i never got with people who always blamed Mo to much for the Bucks problems last year and going into this season along with saying the team would never win with him is they were ignoring Mo is young. When Bogut struggled his first two years, most said give him time to develop, yet weren't willing to offer the same to Mo.

He barely played as a rookie with the Jazz. His next year he signs with the Bucks and TJ gets hurt, Mo has to start and learn on a team with a bad roster. Next year TJ is back and Mo played mostly shooting guard off the bench. Last year the Bucks were 17-16 and on a nice win streak, suddenly guys start getting hurt left and right, Jason Kidd couldn't have lead that crippled roster to even a .500 record. Hell, the last few weeks the team was losing on purpose.

Mo did shoot more than i liked, but the skills were there to be a fine PG. I felt the most important thing he needed was a coach to get on Mo if he wasn't how he should. Stotts had an offense designed for the guards to score, now he's being asked to pass more and he is.

 

[Never Outhustled]

The thing i never got with people who always blamed Mo to much for the Bucks problems last year and going into this season along with saying the team would never win with him is they were ignoring Mo is young.

Excellent point Danzig. Williams last season was at the same point in his development as Chauncy Billups was when the Celtics dumped him right before he became an oustanding player. Both had the same issues; not playing like a true PG, poor defensively, shoot 1st mentallity. Williams has improved dramtically is all those areas, and is now almost a clone of Billups. With the contracts they both signed this past offseason, Williams is actually the better buy.

[don1481]

The thing i never got with people who always blamed Mo to much for the Bucks problems last year and going into this season along with saying the team would never win with him is they were ignoring Mo is young. When Bogut struggled his first two years, most said give him time to develop, yet weren't willing to offer the same to Mo

The differences between Bogut and Mo are immense. Not counting the fact that Bogut was the #1 overall pick (which - justified or not - gives players additional chances and/or more time to develop), he also plays a position that is less "in the middle of everything" when compared to the PG, who touches the ball on pretty much every possession. There is far less margin for error in Mo's ball distribution skills than there is in Bogut's shooting/defensive game, since not every play on offense or defense goes toward Bogut. Mo may be young but that is not an excuse for someone who does touch the ball each time down the court. His decision-making needs to be consistently spot-on, rather than as wildly inconsistent as he's been the past year-plus now.

 

The two PGs that were chosen right after Bogut - Chris Paul and Deron Williams - make far better decisions game in and game out than our current PG. And they're as young - if not younger than - Mo Williams. The youth argument does not really hold much water when you look at what other PGs who were drafted high and expected to immediately enter a starting lineup and run an offense. Mike Conley Jr was drafted as a long-term project by Memphis; it was made very clear from the get-go that he'd get time to develop. Acie Law was drafted by ATL as someone who will gradually get into the starting lineup. Mo Williams, in his 4th season with the Bucks, is expected to contribute here and now. The time for him to have those "growing pains" was before he made $50 million in his new contract. He's expected to be consistently right in his decisions and direct a high-scoring offense.

 

Excellent point Danzig. Williams last season was at the same point in his development as Chauncy Billups was when the Celtics dumped him right before he became an oustanding player. Both had the same issues; not playing like a true PG, poor defensively, shoot 1st mentallity.

While I am encouraged by Mo's first 10 games this season on the whole, 10 games does not a whole season make. Mo's season last year pretty much makes me hesitant to say that he's finally playing consistently like a "true PG." Check with me after game 60. I hope he can keep it up, but until I see it happen, I'm going to be skeptical.

[Oldcity]

They looked good tonight. I still want to see Yi create more shots for himself, though. He has to realize that passing to Redd is a black hole and to not expect to get the ball back, even if he's open.

Redd looks like a different player. He's averaging over 4 assists so far this season, well above his career norm. Last night was his second straight "LeBron Game."

 

[danzig6767]

The thing i never got with people who always blamed Mo to much for the Bucks problems last year and going into this season along with saying the team would never win with him is they were ignoring Mo is young. When Bogut struggled his first two years, most said give him time to develop, yet weren't willing to offer the same to Mo

The differences between Bogut and Mo are immense. Not counting the fact that Bogut was the #1 overall pick (which - justified or not - gives players additional chances and/or more time to develop), he also plays a position that is less "in the middle of everything" when compared to the PG, who touches the ball on pretty much every possession. There is far less margin for error in Mo's ball distribution skills than there is in Bogut's shooting/defensive game, since not every play on offense or defense goes toward Bogut. Mo may be young but that is not an excuse for someone who does touch the ball each time down the court. His decision-making needs to be consistently spot-on, rather than as wildly inconsistent as he's been the past year-plus now.

 

The two PGs that were chosen right after Bogut - Chris Paul and Deron Williams - make far better decisions game in and game out than our current PG. And they're as young - if not younger than - Mo Williams. The youth argument does not really hold much water when you look at what other PGs who were drafted high and expected to immediately enter a starting lineup and run an offense. Mike Conley Jr was drafted as a long-term project by Memphis; it was made very clear from the get-go that he'd get time to develop. Acie Law was drafted by ATL as someone who will gradually get into the starting lineup. Mo Williams, in his 4th season with the Bucks, is expected to contribute here and now. The time for him to have those "growing pains" was before he made $50 million in his new contract. He's expected to be consistently right in his decisions and direct a high-scoring offense.

 

Excellent point Danzig. Williams last season was at the same point in his development as Chauncy Billups was when the Celtics dumped him right before he became an oustanding player. Both had the same issues; not playing like a true PG, poor defensively, shoot 1st mentallity.

While I am encouraged by Mo's first 10 games this season on the whole, 10 games does not a whole season make. Mo's season last year pretty much makes me hesitant to say that he's finally playing consistently like a "true PG." Check with me after game 60. I hope he can keep it up, but until I see it happen, I'm going to be skeptical.

1. Big shocker that Chris Paul and Deron Williams were better players early in their career than Mo was. Both were top 3 picks in the draft, Mo was a second round pick. They were picked that high for a reason, they were much more skilled players coming out of college, Mo was more of a project. The number of mid-second round draft choices that outplay top 3 picks early in their career is microscopic.

 

2.The roster last season was decimated by injuries and Mo stated that Stotts asked him to score. Bogut has shown again this year that he still can't score well one on one in the post if covered by just a decent defender, Redd missed a few months via injury, Simmons didn't play a single game, and CV missed a good chunk of the year leaving Skinner the starting PF and he can't score if his life depended on it. No big surprise that Stotts asked Williams to be a scoring PG with lineups like Mo/Bell/Patterson/Skinner/Bogut and scrubs like Ersan/Noel/Gadz/Reiner coming off the bench. In fact it's amazing the offense was as efficient as it was given all the scrubs and backups that got minutes last year. The year prior Mo played as much SG off the bench as PG, shooting guards score by definition.

 

3. The fact Bogut is a center and Mo a PG means nothing in regards to whether one guy deserves more chance to develop. Michael Redd was a fellow second round choice and didn't finally get his game all together until his fourth season. Mo's path to where he is now was tougher for his development IMO. His first year here, i don't think he was ready to start, but was forced into it on a terrible team. Instead of being able to build on that, TJ comes back and Mo was asked to be mostly a SG the next season. Then last year the better players on the team were dropping like crazy via injury so his coach asked Mo to score. Now this year Mo has more experience, actually has weapons to pass to, and the coach asked him to be more of a passer, not a surprise to me that he's doing as told.

 

It's amazing how impatient some people are with young players, even more so with young players like Mo who was more raw coming into the NBA than many high draft picks are. Mix in that the last two years circumstances dictated that Mo have a scorers mentality, yet fans were screaming that Mo was doing was as he was asked to do by his coach. Mo likely never will be a top 5ish PG in the NBA, he was't born blessed with the crazy skills of guys like Paul and Williams. With that said, i've always liked the potential i saw in Mo, it was simply raw and needed refining/experience like with many young players. Plus, for the first time since being the starting PG, he finally has a decent team around him. He for once isn't needed to score alot and he has weapons to pass to, which he's doing as asked.

[don1481]

1. Big shocker that Chris Paul and Deron Williams were better players early in their career than Mo was. Both were top 3 picks in the draft, Mo was a second round pick. They were picked that high for a reason, they were much more skilled players coming out of college, Mo was more of a project. The number of mid-second round draft choices that outplay top 3 picks early in their career is microscopic.

 

Actually.. top 5, but that's not the point. The point that you're missing here is that Mo was already in what, season 4 last year? Of which he had been a full-time starter for two of those seasons plus a part-time starter/sixth man for another? That's three seasons of a LOT of playing time/development for Mo. So yes - he may be young but... he had plenty of time to develop to that point. Being "young" is not an excuse anymore for Mo Williams. It may have flown in the past but this is year 5 for him. If this season turns into another of inconsistencies... it's inexcusable.

 

2.The roster last season was decimated by injuries and Mo stated that Stotts asked him to score. Bogut has shown again this year that he still can't score well one on one in the post if covered by just a decent defender, Redd missed a few months via injury, Simmons didn't play a single game, and CV missed a good chunk of the year leaving Skinner the starting PF and he can't score if his life depended on it. No big surprise that Stotts asked Williams to be a scoring PG with lineups like Mo/Bell/Patterson/Skinner/Bogut and scrubs like Ersan/Noel/Gadz/Reiner coming off the bench. In fact it's amazing the offense was as efficient as it was given all the scrubs and backups that got minutes last year. The year prior Mo played as much SG off the bench as PG, shooting guards score by definition.

Where has Mo stated that Stotts wanted him to score? I'm curious about that. Either way... we've done this sort of statistical analysis before, specifically with Chris Paul in New Orleans last year as a comparison point. He had just as few healthy weapons as Mo did, was asked to score, yet scored AND distributed the ball well. Again - using Mo's age as an excuse doesn't really fly here - he was in his fourth season (second as a full time starter, and having another season as a part-time starter/big role player under his belt as well) and should have at least somewhat developed in terms of decision-making by then. There was no reason why Mo's assists weren't higher and his shot attempts weren't a bit lower... other than poor decision-making by Mo.

3. The fact Bogut is a center and Mo a PG means nothing in regards to whether one guy deserves more chance to develop. Michael Redd was a fellow second round choice and didn't finally get his game all together until his fourth season. Mo's path to where he is now was tougher for his development IMO. His first year here, i don't think he was ready to start, but was forced into it on a terrible team. Instead of being able to build on that, TJ comes back and Mo was asked to be mostly a SG the next season. Then last year the better players on the team were dropping like crazy via injury so his coach asked Mo to score. Now this year Mo has more experience, actually has weapons to pass to, and the coach asked him to be more of a passer, not a surprise to me that he's doing as told.

Um... wasn't Redd kinda in the running for 6th Man of the Year during Year 3...? And Year 4 was his first without Ray Allen in the starting lineup, so of course Redd would be starting, and of course his numbers would accordingly go up. In year 2, in just over 21 minutes/game, Redd was scoring over 11 points/game. I'd say that's pretty darn good for a second year, second-round pick. Heck, that's probably better than most FIRST round picks. The fact that Bogut is a center and Mo a PG does not mean anything in terms of development opportunities/time. However, the fact that Bogut was the #1 OVERALL pick does most likely mean that he will get more opportunities/patience to develop. That's what my point was.

It's amazing how impatient some people are with young players, even more so with young players like Mo who was more raw coming into the NBA than many high draft picks are. Mix in that the last two years circumstances dictated that Mo have a scorers mentality, yet fans were screaming that Mo was doing was as he was asked to do by his coach. Mo likely never will be a top 5ish PG in the NBA, he was't born blessed with the crazy skills of guys like Paul and Williams. With that said, i've always liked the potential i saw in Mo, it was simply raw and needed refining/experience like with many young players. Plus, for the first time since being the starting PG, he finally has a decent team around him. He for once isn't needed to score alot and he has weapons to pass to, which he's doing as asked.

Being asked to carry a portion of the scoring load <> poor decision-making. Did you watch how many times Mo would take the ball down the court, get into a corner, and hoist up a bad outside shot? He did this COUNTLESS times last season. That's my biggest beef with him. I am happy that his shot attempts are down this year (which is what I have said a ton of times here would be a necessary key for him to be a more successful PG) - it's down nearly 3 attempts/game - but I am surprised that Mo's assists/game only has gone up to 7 thus far. I'll say that he's been more consistent of late (last 5 games) but again - its not a whole season or close to one yet. He's come out of the gate before like gangbusters (albeit as the 6th man) only to get slowed by either injury or just run down over a long season. Check with me after game 60. If he's successful, the Bucks will be winning tons. If he's reverted to throwing up tons of bricks, the Bucks will be losing tons.

 

That's what my argument about Mo has been all along - he hasn't been able to CONSISTENTLY make solid decisions over an entire season. IF he continues to make better decisions (he's still missing a TON of open people), the Bucks will continue to win.

[dadofandrew]

Assists are a bit subjective, as scorers differ in handing them out and most importantly, you have to make the shot and/or not get fouled. Mo is obviously a pretty solid PG, as he had several teams after him this offseason, and got $50M+.

[don1481]

Assists are a bit subjective, as scorers differ in handing them out and most importantly, you have to make the shot and/or not get fouled. Mo is obviously a pretty solid PG, as he had several teams after him this offseason, and got $50M+.

Yeah - if you count the "mid-level exception" as a contract that you'd want as a solid PG.

 

Assists are a bit subjective - I agree with that.

[danzig6767]

You are putting way to much blame on the team losing last year on Mo and to much credit on them winning lately because of Mo. Last year besides the incredible amount of games lost via injury, the two other biggest reasons they lost so many games were the Bucks finished as the second worst defensive team and second worst rebounding team in the NBA. Don't defend and don't rebound in the NBA and you don't win games.

 

Last year the Bucks allowed teams to shoot 48%, flat out terrible. This year teams are shooting 45%. Last year the Bucks were 29th in rebounding, this year they are 12th. Nothing else comes close to being as important to their better start than these two factors.

 

As for Mo don, no point in continuing to argue about him, we simply disagree on reasons why he's developed as he did. I saw a talented young player who was raw in regards to his PG skills, but he played for the Bucks in roles the last two years that didn't help his developing those skills. Two years ago he was asked to playing SG off the bench and then last year he had to score on a team ravaged by injury. Now for the first time in two years Mo can be just a PG because the team is healthy. Mix in he's maturing as a player from being a raw second round pick that really wasn't a PG in college and had to learn to be one in the NBA, i like where he's finally getting to.

 

All along i felt the main thing Mo needed was experience, a better team around him, and a head coach that leaned on Mo to play more controlled. He's got those things and is finally starting to shine. Thankfully the Bucks weren't as impatient as you are don and understood there were things that slowed his development, not all guys come into the NBA with special gifts like Paul or Williams. Some need time and coaching, with some shaky play mixed in while developing.

[Mr QL]

They really should unban me from realgm. :/

 

What Bogut has done on defense is nothing short of amazing. He's actually turning into a dominant shotblocking big man defender. Redd becoming all around player too? What the heck is going on.

[Oldcity]

Not that one month is much to comment on, but if they keep playing the way they are it just goes to show the difference a competent coach can make over an inept one.

[don1481]

All along i felt the main thing Mo needed was experience, a better team around him, and a head coach that leaned on Mo to play more controlled. He's got those things and is finally starting to shine. Thankfully the Bucks weren't as impatient as you are don and understood there were things that slowed his development, not all guys come into the NBA with special gifts like Paul or Williams. Some need time and coaching, with some shaky play mixed in while developing.

Unfortunately, Mo got his "experience" running teams that could have probably competed a lot better had they had frankly better point guards. That's the source of the frustration; in the NBA can a team that claims to be "competitive" really run a PG out there that's "shaky" and try to let him work out his issues? Absolutely not. Am I impatient? We all are to an extent - look at the firestorm on the Cordero thread, if you want proof of that. Mo's development would have been most likely more consistent had the Bucks not hired Stotts and went with someone who wouldn't be afraid of benching Mo if he was making the consistently-bad decisions that he was making.

 

It's not so much that I am impatient as I was unhappy with Mo's wretchedly inconsistent play and decision-making. I've said before that the keys to the Bucks having a successful season do start at the PG spot because of how much Mo handles the ball; I'm going to stick with that story here. If Mo continues to play well, the Bucks will win a bit more than the critics have said they will.

[bthurley19]

Another great game for Mo and another win for the Bucks. Cleveland on the road, Lakers and Dallas at home. 3 pretty impressive wins. Keep up the good work boys and keep passing the ball Mo. I might still believe in you as a NBA point guard after all.

[wisconsinfan47]

Back to back to back wins against the Cavs, Lakers, and Mavs! Who are these guys?!