3B Coach Update

[RockCoCougars]

As unpopular as trading Gorman was, Manning was probably the better player at the time.

I disagree. Manning was never a good player. The Brewers knew Thomas was the better player, but they foolishly thought that Gorman's "laziness" was becoming a cancer to the team. In particular, I remember quotes from another "Dalton coach", Dave Garcia all over the press after the trade. Trading a decent center fielder who had just led the league in homers for a no hit center fielder basically signaled the end of the Brewers glory days.

 

All in all though Dalton was a good GM, easily the best the Brewers have had. Towards the end of his reign he slipped, he tended to sit on his hands too much, or make the wrong move (Ron Robinson, Franklin Stubbs,, etc.). He kind of lived off Bruce Manno's work with the farm system at that point

 

What happened to Bruce Manno anyway?

 

To the point at hand, I think it is asinine to suggest that Melvin should be fired. While I've found myself disagreeing with him more often during the past year (keeping Mench, Counsell, Linnebrink, keeping Yost), etc, he's done a pretty good job. I still wake up in a cold sweat with nightmares that Dean Taylor is back in charge.

[Fatter than Joey]

Are you seriously gonna say Dalton's a better GM, because he rebuilt a losing atmosphere?

 

What are you talking about -- Dalton had 4 losing seasons in 14 years -- Melvin has had 3 in 5. Dalton turned a 95 loss team into a 93 win team. The year after Dalton left, the Brewers won 90+ games. Dalton took the Brewers to the WS, and is credited with one of the best trades in the history of baseball -- Dalton was a very talented GM.

 

Melvin needed more time than Dalton, because unlike Dalton he didn't have the leagues highest payroll at the time.

 

The 1978 Brewers had the leagues highest payroll? Lary Sorsenson pulling down the huge bank?

 

Yeah, our pitching staff stank, but Melvin is not a psychic.

 

No -- he wasn't a psychic in Texas either. I didn't realize though GM's needed supernatural powers to put together a pitching staff. Ultimately though this is no excuse. He should have contacted Dionne Warwick or Uri Gellar.

 

How was he supposed to know that Wise and Turnbow would be non-existant in the 2nd half?

 

He could have watched Turnbow pitch in 2006 to figure this out.

 

Doug Melvin is going to be very agressive addressing needs this off-season, and will have this team right where they need to be in 2008

 

I hope so. If he doesn't get it done in 2008 I think it is time to cut him lose.

[Fatter than Joey]

Trading a decent center fielder who had just led the league in homers for a no hit center fielder basically signaled the end of the Brewers glory days.

 

Thomas was pretty bad in 1983 -- The Brewers wanted to move Simmons to DH. Neither Manning or Thomas were particularly productive after the trade -- Thomas had a bounceback year, but I think the biggest culprit were injuries to Yount, Molitor and Fingers.

 

To the point at hand, I think it is asinine to suggest that Melvin should be fired.

 

Today, I agree -- I think this is his make/break year though. I certainly want to see what he does this offseason, but he needs to do better than he did last year.

 

What happened to Bruce Manno anyway?

 

He was in the Cards system for awhile -- I think he is in the ATL now.

 

I still wake up in a cold sweat with nightmares that Dean Taylor is back in charge.

 

Dean Taylor can't hurt us anymore

[Hart Of Milwaukee]

What are you talking about -- Dalton had 4 losing seasons in 14 years -- Melvin has had 3 in 5. Dalton turned a 95 loss team into a 93 win team. The year after Dalton left, the Brewers won 90+ games. Dalton took the Brewers to the WS, and is credited with one of the best trades in the history of baseball -- Dalton was a very talented GM.

First of all, I think Dalton was a good GM. Second of all,I hope you know that Melvin didn't come here on day 1 to build a winner right then and there. Doug Melvin's goal isn"t that 25 years from now this organization will be celebrating its second great world series loss, but that we will have some actual longevity in winning which will hopefully include multiple playoff runs and a world series or two.

The 1978 Brewers had the leagues highest payroll? Lary Sorsenson pulling down the huge bank?

No but in Dalton's most succesful year 1982 according to a special report on FSN the two highest payrolls in baseball were the Royals and Brewers. (Scary)
No -- he wasn't a psychic in Texas either. I didn't realize though GM's needed supernatural powers to put together a pitching staff. Ultimately though this is no excuse. He should have contacted Dionne Warwick or Uri Gellar.

Actually he did have an excuse. Coming out of Spring Training many people projected us as having one of the strongest rotations in the national league. It is unrealistic of a fan to expect Doug Melvin to know that his #2 starter would lose something like 20 consecutive decisions, and that two of the best mid-relievers in baseball from july on would decide that they forgot how to pitch. If this team would have had the Matt Wise of the past 2 years there is no doubt in my mind we win the division!


He could have watched Turnbow pitch in 2006 to figure this out.

So is he just supposed to ignore his 2005 season? Cordero bounced back fromthe same exact problems Turnbow had in 06, and Melvin had no reason to believe Turnbow couldn't do the same.

I hope so. If he doesn't get it done in 2008 I think it is time to cut him lose.

Just so you know that if they fired Melvin today and they won the world series in 2008 it would still be his team, because he assembled most of the pieces. I know I know Jack Z drafted most them, but it took a coy GM to realize Jack Z was a heck of a scout and not just simply dump him for one of his "own guys"

[MNBrew]

Then from 87-91 he had 4 out 5 non-losing seasons - that is far from bad.

 

By that logic, the Brewers' record has improved in 4 of Melvin's 5 seasons, with only one losing season in the past 3. And that 6-game decline in '06 could largely be credited to 3 of the top 6 starters coming into the year (Sheets, Ohka, & Helling) and 3/4 of the starting IF (Koskie, Hardy, & Weeks) all missing at least half the season.

 

I don't agree -- he was GM for 14 years -- certainly not everything was golden, but he was a very good GM that produced results both in Milw and Bal.

 

Doug Melvin is also a very good GM who produced winning teams in Texas and is in the midst of overseeing the resurrection of the Brewers' franchise and baseball organization. The Brewers are widely viewed across baseball as a team on the rise and potentially set up for a nice, long run.

 

A-Rod's tenure in Texas failing to produce a winner was the result of Tom Hicks, the owner, overpaying him absurdly -- Scott Boras had 100 times more to do with that move (and the eventual feelings of failure on the part of Hicks) than Doug Melvin, who still took the fall for Hicks' misconceived grand plan.

 

By the time Dalton retired, which was long overdue, the way the baseball side of the organization was run was a huge dysfunctional mess. When Dalton retired and Bando took over, they cleaned house. The Brewers still had many good players at the big-league level through '92 and were only on the verge of starting to declare themselves the poster children of baseball's small-market economics complex. They soon lost many of those good players to free agency (Molitor & Bosio, for instance - only to have Bosio come back & no-hit them so poetically the next spring, & Molitor turn out to be an MVP of some round of the playoffs), retirement, or whatever, and the results of Dalton's mess became more evident over the next several years.

 

I liked Harry Dalton a lot through most of his Brewers years and his overall record is quite enviable. If he were worthy of highest-caliber praise in my book, though, he would've had to have left the franchise so much better poised for the time after his departure than he did.

 

What ever happened to Bruce Manno?

 

Bruce Manno was named Asst. GM in Atlanta just this past Monday (10/22). But I sure hadn't heard his name much in the past decade, either.

[Fatter than Joey]

First of all, I think Dalton was a good GM.

 

There is simply no debating it -- If you look at what Dalton did in Balt. and Milw. you can't help but conclude he was very good at what he did.

 

Now. The reason Dalton's name is brought into this discussion is that any time we talk about replacing DM, Yost or even Johnny Estrada, -- Sal Bando, Lopes or Moeller are brought up.

 

I really think BFnet needs to have a group therapy session, where everybody gets talk about how Bando hurt us, and that at the end we can understand that Sal Bando is powerless to hurt us anymore.

 

I remember what it was like to have bad GMs/Managers and catchers -- I also though remember having good GMs and good catchers, and while I appreciate that Melvin is an upgrade over some folks, I think he could be improved upon.

 

Second of all,I hope you know that Melvin didn't come here on day 1 to build a winner right then and there. Doug Melvin's goal isn"t that 25 years from now this organization will be celebrating its second great world series loss, but that we will have some actual longevity in winning which will hopefully include multiple playoff runs and a world series or two.

 

Dalton transformed a ~60 win team into a ~60 loss team in one season -- and then in his 4th season went to the playoffs, and his 5th went to the WS. In his 10th season the Brewers won 90+ games. Dalton had immediate and long-term success, in a era where it was harder to make the playoffs.

 

If DM would have the ability to produce a winner his first year he certainly would have -- He was unable to.

 

No but in Dalton's most succesful year 1982 according to a special report on FSN the two highest payrolls in baseball were the Royals and Brewers.

 

A couple of points need to be made here.

 

1.) In 1977 the Brewers were 12th in the AL in attendance -- by 1983 the Brewers were 2nd in attendance. The fact that Dalton had a higher payroll was largely due to Dalton's work.

 

2.) "Highest Payroll" in 1982 doesn't mean what it does today. Most of the teams had similar salaries in 1978. In 2006 -- The #1 team had a $40 million higher payroll than the number 2 team, and a $165 million over the #30 team. In 1978 -- The entire range was probably only $2.5 million (as opposed to $165 million).

 

that two of the best mid-relievers in baseball from july on would decide that they forgot how to pitch. If this team would have had the Matt Wise of the past 2 years there is no doubt in my mind we win the division!

 

Both Wise and Tbow were scrap-heap reclamations and should have been treated accordingly. This line of thinking sort of reminds me of Brian Shouse getting a lot of ABs against RHers -- having good results, but then at some point "forgetting how to pitch" and getting lit up. Or Rick Helling getting starts after some good performances out of the pen.

 

So is he just supposed to ignore his (Turnbows) 2005 season?

 

Not ignore -- but 2005 was the aberration for Turnbow, he did not have a strong history.

 

Cordero bounced back fromthe same exact problems Turnbow had in 06, and Melvin had no reason to believe Turnbow couldn't do the same.

 

You called me "absolutly dumb" in this thread. To compare Cordero and Turnbow in 2006 is "absolutly uninformed". -- If you will refer to Cordero's gamelog you will see he had a bad April -- but was pitching well prior to the trade. Texas had the luxury of having another closer in Otsuka. Cordero also has a strong history of results that Turnbow doesn't -- If DM expects the same results, (or at any point expected) from Tbow as he does from Cordero he should be fired immediately.

 

but it took a coy GM to realize Jack Z was a heck of a scout and not just simply dump him for one of his "own guys"

 

I will concede it was very coy of DM to not DFA Ben Sheets for one of his own guys.

 

Doug Melvin, who still took the fall for Hicks' misconceived grand plan.

 

Certainly, Arod was a mess in Texas -- However, the fact remains that DM didn't do a lot to develop pitching in TX.

 

If he were worthy of highest-caliber praise in my book, though, he would've had to have left the franchise so much better poised for the time after his departure than he did.

 

The team won 90+ games the year after Dalton left -- I don't see how Bando not signing Molitor is Dalton's fault.

 

Bruce Manno was named Asst. GM in Atlanta just this past Monday (10/22). But I sure hadn't heard his name much in the past decade, either.

 

He was in STL prior to joining ATL, overseeing their minor league ops.

[bullox]

Interesting talk about the potential new 3B coach going on here

[billyhallfan]

Interesting talk about the potential new 3B coach going on here

 

I think it should be Harry Daltonhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

 

[Fatter than Joey]

Interesting talk about the potential new 3B coach going on here

 

We did get sidetracked --

 

My point was that if Yost is on the proverbial short-leash, I would hate to lose a potentially good organizational guy (Money/Kremblas) when the new manager/GM cleans house.

 

I think it should be Harry Dalton

 

Harry's dead unfortunately -- but that said, he'd be better than Sveum.

[trwi7]

I say we give Sal Bando a try as 3rd base coach. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[thumperden]

I'm curious to find out if Jim Gantner's name has been mentioned as a candidate. I haven't heard anything, but he's a guy I'd like to see in the mix.

[RockCoCougars]

Regarding the third base coach, I think that it's a foregone conclusion that it's going to be Kremblas. After the collapse, Yost doesn't have the pull to make his decision on this. I would be shocked if it was anyone else, especially considering that Kremblas "took one for the team" last year and went back to Nashville. That said, I don't want Kremblas as manager next June. This team needs someone with experience, preferably someone who's taken a team to the playoffs. The more I've read on Bobby Valentine, the more I think he would be a perfect fit for this team....

[don1481]

It is unrealistic of a fan to expect Doug Melvin to know that his #2 starter would lose something like 20 consecutive decisions, and that two of the best mid-relievers in baseball from july on would decide that they forgot how to pitch.

With regards to Capuano, all one needed to do was look at his "sparkling" 1-8, 5.17 post-All Star splits from 2006 to realize that he wasn't exactly a bona fide #2. You could even look at his post-All star splits from 2005 to see that his second halves from the two seasons that put him as the Brewers' #2 weren't all that consistent and that he seemed to become less effective as the season progressed. And the trend also continued this season, as he posted an even worse second than a first half that started off promising but quickly nose-dived.

 

With regards to Villanueva and Wise (I'm assuming those are the two you're referencing here), I'll concede that they had no way of knowing that Wise was going to drill someone in the face and have it totally affect Wise's ability to pitch. As far as Villanueva goes, it should have been fairly obvious to Melvin et al that CV had never pitched in large chunks from the bullpen and that it was risky to rely on someone like that so heavily (see also Papelbon, Jonathan in '06 with the shoulder problems arising from being used in a way he had never been used before). The best answer would have been to acquire another arm or two in the offseason so such ineffective pitchers like Aquino and Spurling never had to see Milwaukee's bullpen.

 

As FTJ pointed out before, DM really never showed much of a sense of acquiring pitching while in Texas, which ultimately proved to be his downfall there. If you look at those TX teams, they were offensive monsters but their pitching could never keep them in the game (Chan Ho Park, anyone?). Which is starting to sound like the story here. This offseason is indeed make-or-break for DM; the pitching situation in particular has to be an a priori issue to be resolved.

 

EDIT: Getting back to the topic of the thread here...

 

Regarding the third base coach, I think that it's a foregone conclusion that it's going to be Kremblas.

I'm not so sure about that. Yes, I know that Kremblas has worked with all of the players but given Braun's inability to properly "read" baseballs hit towards him at third, it's imperative that the Brewers have someone around him that can work with him on being able to improve his defense to "passable" - and no, I don't mean "passable to the left fielder." If I'm DM I'm strongly considering Don Money as well as Kremblas here for that reason coupled with his success at AA. If Money gets the job it should be made very clear (without stating it publicly, of course) that if Ned can't produce wins Kremblas gets first whack at the manager job for the remainder of the season. I see no issue with promoting the AAA manager to manage the Brewers; I don't necessarily think that an interim person needs to be on the big-league coaching staff.

[Team Canada]

Actually, in the latest article Adam says that Money is the frontrunner right now.

[AJAY]

Not sure if this has been posted already, but Drew Olson of Onmilwaukee.com brings up Jerry Narron as a candidate to become the third base coach.

 

http://www.onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/scorecard102707.html

[brewmann04]

very curious seems like their an outside canadiate that might get the job and Narron fits that mold

[MNBrew]

Jerry Narron? Oh geez. Can we please hire more people with former Rangers ties to Doug Melvin? I like Melvin a whole lot, but this pattern keeps getting more silly. If they hire Narron, they'll start to rival the way Kevin McHale seems to make 3/4 of his moves involving anyone with Celtics ties.

 

Someone commented about Melvin's failure to develop much pitching in Texas. Fact is, hardly anyone can seem to do that with the Rangers. Melvin's job was to bring in the talent. It's the job of the coaching staff -- major and minor league -- to develop that talent unless now for some reason it falls on the GM to straighten out a guy's mechanics. As has usually been the case in Colorado, the Rangers organization (multiple administrations & coaching/managing teams) just haven't had major success developing consistent pitching.

 

And the other fact is, the majority of the pitching talent Melvin has brought into the organization (trades, scrap heap, etc.) HAS developed and HAS achieved, at least for a half-season and often more (Wise, DDavis, Kolb, Turnbow, Cordero, Shouse, Villanueva, and others). Buy low, sell high, right? Over time this board has generally agreed that Melvin has usually done quite well and hardly has bombed on the Brewers' return in player moves.

[TooLiveBrew]

Melvin's job was to bring in the talent. It's the job of the coaching staff -- major and minor league -- to develop that talent unless now for some reason it falls on the GM to straighten out a guy's mechanics.

 

Who has the ultimate decision-making power on coaching staffs, though?

[bklynbrewcrew]

Jerry Narron is the last thing this organization needs. The man is as clueless as Ned and Dale. I used to think Melvin was amongst the best GMs in the game but at this point I am really starting to question him. Enough with the Texas Rangers rejects. Narron has shown that he shouldnt be anywhere near a major league team. Between Melvins stubborness regarding keeping Yost and his insistence on keeping the majors worst defense intact I really wonder if he is the man for the job. I am starting to believe that we would be better off dumping Ned and Doug and letting Jack Z have the Gm job.

[Fatter than Joey]

Who has the ultimate decision-making power on coaching staffs, though?

 

I suspect with Ned's short leash, he may have less decision in this.

 

I'd rather have Narron getting cleaned out than someone like Jennings or Driver.

 

EDIT: Oops watching pre-game -- should have been "Money or Kremblas"

[patrickgpe]

while i don't loose too much sleep over who the 3rd base coach should be, i wouldn't want Narron only if he would most likely get the managers job if Ned is let go.

[futurefan]

I am putting my money (no pun intended) on a newcomer (might be Ted

Simmons) to be the new hire and assume bench coach duties and Dale S.

back to 3rd base coach. Good bet

[AJAY]

From JS Online . . .

 

Brewers general manager Doug Melvin said tonight the club probably will announce a new third base by the end of the week.

 

Class AAA Nashville manager Frank Kremblas and Class AA Huntsville manager Don Money are the top internal candidates for the position, which became open when Nick Leyva was dismissed after the season. But Melvin said he also is considering "a couple of other names" from outside of the organization.

 

Melvin would not reveal those outside candidates but did say that former Texas and Cincinnati manager Jerry Narron was not one of them. Narron managed for Melvin when he was the GM in Texas and the two remain friends.

 

"I talked to Jerry but he's not in consideration," said Melvin.

 

Asked what might make him go outside of the organization, Melvin said, "It would be someone that offers experience with the overall talent level in the National League. Someone that might have a presence in dealing with veteran players.

 

"We didn't have a problem with our younger players but we may have a need for someone to talk to veteran players. That way, (manager) Ned (Yost) doesn't always have to do it."

[jhpc12]

I'm like everyone else on the board. I believe it is down to two men. I don't think it has ever been more than these two.

 

But I believe if the job is not offered to Frank he walks. He has proved everything he can in the minors, just like a player. It is time for him to get the chance.

 

Chemistry is a word that is thrown around all the time. Frank has helped develope these young kids first hand. They trust in him. I personally think he is a great third base coach having watched him mature from Hunstville to Nashville. He almost walked when they didn't offer him the job in Indianapolis, but according to the Brewer web site they implied that if he did what he was suppose to do at the minor league level his future was with the big club.

 

Well the future is now. I think they will give Frank the chance. If not don't be supprised if he walks. And I believe there will be plenty of takers.

[Thurston Fluff]

I suspect with Ned's short leash, he may have less decision in this.

 

If Melvin's philosophy of whose decision it is to hire coaches changed becuase he no longer trusts Yost then I think Yost would no longer be the manager. I suspect fan's view of Melvins relationship with Yost is vastly differant than reality. It would make no sense what so ever to tell the manager you still believe in his abilities then strip him of the ability to chose who works under him. Furthermore if Yost's job really is on the line, which I believe next year it is (and should be), then he should have the chance to chose those he's going to succeed of fail with. I just don't see how limiting his options now makes any sense. Especially in an area largely unrelated to his perceived weakness of game strategy.