Mitchell steroid probe; Latest - Clemens headed to Court; Congress

[jaybird2001wi]

I hate to create a double topic on this issue, but there has been mentions the Mitchell Investigation will be unveiled by Thanksgiving with a list of "big" names and names that have never been mentioned before.

Since I work third shift a lot, I have the chance to watch ESPN's Mike and Mike in the Morning and they interviewed Buster Olney by phone and it seems like Olney does not know what will become of the "list."

 

Olney does make some solid points on the probe because it seems like the Investigation could be extremely vague with no corroboration from a second or third party involved with the names being leaked out.

Then there comes the issue of whether the current players named on the investigation will ever be suspended or even banned from MLB altogether.

It seems like this could be a vague solution by MLB and pass it off as "progress" being made in the war on steroids.

 

Mike Greenberg basically mentioned on the Monday morning show that he is looking forward to it, but there are just too many questions of the investigation once the findings are unveiled.

Here are the questions I have:

1) How will this compare to the 1989 "Dowd Report" on Pete Rose? Will the players involved be forced to sign an affidavit stating he did or did not use steroids? Will punishments be issued to those who acknowledge the truthfulness of the probe?

2) How will the Players Association react? Will the MLBPA attempt to take the investigation to court and force an injunction to prevent the release of names?

3) If the Investigation proves to be merely a vague list of names with no corroboration by a second and third party, will there be a liability of future lawsuits against the investigation by players mentioned?

4) What kind of proof or evidence be used to "prove" the named players indeed used steroids? Will accountants be used to check the receipts of said named players to show they purchased steroids? Or did the players involved "cook the books" and burned the receipts from various nationwide labs to dispell any evidence?

5) Will Bud Selig ever suspend any of the players? Because if the names are released and no one is ever fined/suspensed/possibly banned, could this Investigation hurt Selig more than help Selig and this Investigation could be passed off as a "PR smokescreen" for MLB?

 

The names that I know of from previous reports are as follows, the way I understand and the likelyhood of the named players providing names in parenthesis:

 

1) Jason Grimsley (courts declined to release sealed documents in which the pitcher named players in a separate investigation)

2) Jason Giambi (stated he would not name names in his interview with George Mitchell, but instead provide insight on prevention of future steroid use)

3) Gary Sheffield (acknowledged use of "the clear," which he placed the blame on Barry Bonds for giving him something that he "did not know" was a steroid)

4) Barry Bonds (major speculation, and some leaks he "allegedly" used steroids)

5) Jay Gibbons (was named in a prior news report as being a recipient of HGH)

6) Rafael Palmeiro (only big name ever to be suspended)

7) Mark McGwire (speculation, see: Bonds)

8) Jose Canseco (considered to be a "dimwitted" ballplayer, who despite skeptics, was actually right about everything to do with steroids and willfully interviewed with Mitchell)

 

Could Canseco be the smoking gun in this entire investigation? I'd say so. Unless Canseco basically has no proof other than, "I witnessed or I helped McGwire shoot up in the bathroom in Oakland."

 

Olney reports that names that have never been linked to steroids will be included in the investigation. One possibility is that perhaps Rickey Henderson could have steroids or maybe Julio Franco at some point in their careers. These two are big question marks because they played well into their 40's.

[brettac1]

4) Barry Bonds (major speculation, and some leaks he "allegedly" used steroids)

 

He admitted to unknowingly taking steroids during the BALCO grand jury thing. It's more than speculation. I'm a fan, and I'll freely admit that he juiced.

 

There's also Rick Ankiel.

 

And names that Canseco mentioned in his book - Dave Martinez, Bret Boone, and some others. I think Mitchell could save some ink and print the list of clean guys, because that'd be pretty short. I don't see the point in knowing the list, or what it accomplishes, other than getting guys booed when they play on the road and bringing more negative attention to the game.

 

I would really hope that Mitchell has actual evidence for putting guys on the list - like if he puts McGwire on just because Canseco says so, that's pretty weak. And Mike Greenberg is the worst, most annoying radio host I have ever heard. Ugh.

[PaulRigdon]

*cough*geoff*cough*jenkins*cough*

[rluzinski]

Jenkins is always mentioned and it wouldn't surprise me if it was true but what about him screams "steroids" more than any other slugger? Did I miss some evidence or is it just blind speculation?

[logan82]

At this point I just assume everybody is guilty and just move on. I always believe the cheaters are ahead of the testers.

[DSFastball55]

Jenkins is always mentioned and it wouldn't surprise me if it was true but what about him screams "steroids" more than any other slugger? Did I miss some evidence or is it just blind speculation?

I think it was 2005, Jenkins was noticibly skinnier when he arrived for spring training. I remember seeing him on TV for the first time that year and thinking what a big difference it was from the previous year, and not one word was mentioned anywhere about it (except in forums such as this). Of course it's only speculation, but it's no different than when Pudge and others suddenly appeared much smaller a couple years back.

[Patrick425]

I'm always shocked at the apathy by many towards the whole steroids issue when ever it is brought up on this board. Kind of a "Whatever, who cares, everyone is doing it and their going to keep doing it and no one can stop them" type mentality. I don't understand it at all. You're happy with this future for baseball? A bunch of chemically created monsters making a mockery of the game? That's not baseball.

Fair or unfair, I'm all for making an example out of the players that are caught, much like what Marion Jones and Floyd Landis have gone through. I don't think any player wants to go through what Bonds is going through. If they name names and this "list" of players become the new villians of baseball maybe it will wake up others. Maybe others will decide, geeze, it's not worth going through that.

I'm tired of watching records be obliterated and watching tape measure HRs become commonplace. I'm tired of the constant suspicions that hang over the game and the comments of millionaire steroid freaks being tossed around. I'd like to see some innocence and integrity restored to the game.

[Invader3K]

If Jenkins has been using steroids anytime recently, he should probably demand a refund from his dealer.

[endaround]

And of course Jenkins had a huge 2005.

[TooLiveBrew]

90% or higher is my guess as to "how many?" It's not that I don't care about performance-enhancing substance abuse, it's that I've come to terms that nearly every single player in pro sports has used, is currently using, or will use some form of PED. I can't go on thinking that there are only the 'bad guys' that did it. I guarantee you many of our beloved Brewers have used or are using. Color me jaded, I guess.

 

For the Jenkins 'his numbers weren't great' crowd... Alex Sanchez?

[sbrylski]

I'm always shocked at the apathy by many towards the whole steroids issue when ever it is brought up on this board. Kind of a "Whatever, who cares, everyone is doing it and their going to keep doing it and no one can stop them" type mentality. I don't understand it at all. You're happy with this future for baseball? A bunch of chemically created monsters making a mockery of the game? That's not baseball.

 

I'd like to see some innocence and integrity restored to the game.

Going back in time and trying to hunt guys down is going to get us nowhere, because I too am of the opinion just about everyone's name will end up on someone's list.

 

The physical expectations of become a professional sports athlete are so high today, there will always be people looking for a leg up, and they will always be a step ahead of the people trying to prevent them from doing so. I agree we should still do whatever we can to prevent the abuse of physically dangerous PED's in the future, but I don't think its worth the time and money to figure out who did what in 1998.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

A large part of the role this inqui...er...investigation is playing is to divert public attention away from the fact that MLB and whoever they're working with have not yet been able to devise a reliable test for HGH. While I understand that since it's a hormone, it's not as readily detectable as a steroid, this is still deeply troubling. It's either incompetence (however slight it may be - I understand that there are intellingent people working on this), or enabling from MLB.

[igor67]

As a scientist I cannot let the comment stand Toolive. Failure to produce results is not an OK way to infer incompetence. The problem may not be resolvable with current technology.

[TooLiveBrew]

Sorry, igor. I don't mean incompetence in that the scientists working on this are losers and idiots, just that a test is needed, and there isn't one yet - with years of work involved. I mean that the result is incompetent in this sense: "inadequate to or unsuitable for a particular purpose" (Merriam-Webster online). I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. Perhaps your notion on current technology is indeed correct.

 

However, thus far, I'd say that definition fits the situation, and isn't an insult. I realize that a huge part of the scientific process is so-called 'failures,' which in turn lead to 'successes'/results - that just because one test doesn't end up working out, that doesn't mean it didn't help progress the search even more. I just am frustrated that it's been years, not just months, and still no reliable test.

[Weirdos19]

I wonder how many pitchers show up on this report. I personally think that Clemens was juicing. His career took a definate upswing at the exact same time as HR totals went through the roof. My list of pitchers that may have used steroids.

Clemens- Reasoning above.

Dave Stewart- Teammates with the Bash Brothers. Average pitcher before that.

Isringhausen- Still solid today, but injury prone and was also with Oakland years ago.

Grimsley- Admitted use long ago.

Schilling- Seems to ring of Irony, huh.

I'm sure there are more. Can anybody else think of anyone.

[sbrylski]

I'm sure there are more. Can anybody else think of anyone.

 

David Wells

Randy Johnson

Chris Carpenter (any correlation between increased TJ recovery and steroids?)

Kenny Rogers

John Smoltz

Kevin Brown

Pedro Martinez

 

ect...

 

Lots.

[TooLiveBrew]

The vast majority.

[jaybird2001wi]

I am going to bump this up to the top since there are now reports that 11 current free agents are linked to steroids, according to reports by ESPN and the Boston Globe.

[D Miles Domination]

I LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE Barry Bonds, he'll come out clean again. Geoff is going down this time.

[TooLiveBrew]

?

[Big Reed]

why leak that 11 free agents are on the list and not name their names? What a tease. Are we supposed to stay tuned to ESPN for the next 6 weeks for them to release a name each week? and then like Dancing with the Stars and American Idol come out in December with the big steriods user? We could call it Dancing with the Steriods!

 

The clinic in Florida is trying to get the leaks stopped. good luck with that.

 

The San Francisco paper must have all the names by now. and when it's a slow news day, they will release a couple more. I wonder what they had against Cleveland's Byrd? You have to know that the only reason he admitted to using steriods was because the San francisco paper informed him they were about to release his name as a user. Couldn't they have waited and released his name with Jose Guillen and matt Williams? You have to believe that paper had the other players' names when they forced byrd to speak out.

 

So how long will we have to wait until the San fran paper releases the names of the latest 11? To me, 11 seems kind of low.

[brettac1]

It wouldn't sell as much copy to wait until after the series to name Byrd. They had the information that he bought the stuff long before they released it, so they did wait - until they could maximize the amount of attention it would garner.

 

I guess, what's the rush? To me, there's no real reason for even knowing at all, it's kind of unimportant. I mean, is anyone going to be shocked when Eckstein shows up on the list? He's been rumored for a long time.

[don1481]

I am going to bump this up to the top since there are now reports that 11 current free agents are linked to steroids, according to reports by ESPN and the Boston Globe.

Actually, per the latest updates on ESPN/MSNBC, it's 11 free agents were asked to speak with Mitchell, not that they necessarily did steroids. The article does talk about those initial reports.

 

Something I found interesting:

 

The Yankees' Jason Giambi is the only active player known to have spoken with Mitchell. A second player, who was not identified, also agreed to cooperate, SI.com reported this week.

I wonder who that second player is. Bonds?

[Big Reed]

my guess that the second player is somebody who still wants to play in MLB. Guys like bonds and sheffield would never willingly agree to co-operate. my guess is it's Gary Matthews Jr.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"I'm sure there are more. Can anybody else think of anyone."

 

I can! But any list of fishy pitchers has to start with Roger Clemens, continue with most represented by Scott Boras (ya know, so-so pitchers who suddenly became amazing JUST before their old contracts ended), and end with Clemens's cabana boy, Andy Pettitte.

 

Notice how many of these pitchers peaked at JUST the right time, swallowed up billions, and then started to break down, physically, BIG time? All of them, aside from those 2 Yankee Dorian Grays, were Boras clients:

 

Kevin Millwood

Barry Zito

Kevin Brown

Rick Ankiel

Darren Dreifort

Andy Benes

Chan Ho Park

Eric Gagne

Ben McDonald (moment of silence)

Jarrod Washburn

Jeff Weaver

Steve Avery

 

Amazing how these teams keep getting tricked by this pimple on the buttocks of the game. Young Boras client pitcher starts career with promise. Somehow turns in career year in free agent walk season. Gets biggest contract of his career. Physical and/or performance decline for new team inevitably starts. Now middle-age pitcher has $50 million in the bank, while the team he signed with, feels cheated.