Clint Hurdle's quote: importance of pitching and defense

[RoseBowlMtg]

I found this interesting relating to the Brewers approach and would like to hear some of your thoughts:

 

From Haudricourt:

 

It's no accident that Colorado improved dramatically in the areas of pitching and defense. Seeing they were getting nowhere trying to out-slug opponents in past seasons, the Rockies made a commitment to change their approach.

 

"There was a point in time we had that discussion internally,' manager Clint Hurdle said. "And I stood by the statement that if you build a good offensive team, you'll send a lot of players to the All-Star Game. If you want to win late and play late, you need to have a team that can pitch and a team that can play defense."

 

I know the Brewers approach to pitching is like Atlanta's was but their approach to hitting is to get a stud hitter and teach them defense. That has been the approach with Prince, Weeks and Braun and appears to be with LaPorta and Munson.

 

Is Hurdle getting too much attention because of this hot streak or is Colorado onto something?

[Fear The Chorizo]

Since the addage of 'pitching and defense wins' has been around basically since baseball was invented, I don't think his statement or the fact that the Rockies were able to get to the point they have in this season should be a huge shock .

 

Media coverage has put such an emphasis on great offensive baseball players that oftentimes the defensive half of the game is completely overlooked. After watching both Colorado and the D'Backs play this postseason, it's obvious that the talent of their young players shines both in the batters box AND out in the field. I look at it this way - I would say that Braun, Fielder, and Weeks are great young hitters. I would say that Tulowitzki, Drew, Young, and Holiday are great young baseball players.

 

With that all said, it speaks alot to the balance of the NL that Colorado needed a TGJ triple and a 163rd game after finishing the season so hot just to get into the postseason.

[Fatter than Joey]

Is Hurdle getting too much attention because of this hot streak or is Colorado onto something?

 

Well -- They look pretty smart right about now, and regardless of the "Coors effect" they are winning ballgames on the road as well.

 

But look at Braun --

 

Before he gets his first start (May 25) the Brewers are 28-19 and .596, and of course the Brewers end up with a .512 record (55-60 after May 25th .478).

 

Of course we all know Fielder goes on to hit 50 HRs, and Braun replaces the vegetable stand that is Graffy/Counsell with a MVP type season -- yet we win at a .478 clip for the lion's share of the season.

 

So basically in a quick and dirty sort of way I conclude that a lot of Fielder/Brauns's offensive production gets chewed up by their inability to play defense, and the Brewers lose more games.

 

Now -- I know that there were other culprits -- numerable Yostings, bad pitching (although I think pitching is a function that includes defense and Yostings as variables). I am not exclusively blaming Braun for 2007 WOAHS

 

DM tried to set up a slugging happy team in TX, and they never turned the corner -- and I don't expect the Brewers to either, until they address their inability to field.

[RoseBowlMtg]

FTC I agree that "Braun, Fielder, and Weeks are great young hitters. I would say that Tulowitzki, Drew, Young, and Holiday are great young baseball players."

 

The relation I want to make with the Brewers is that Fielder, Braun and Weeks are not great fielders and that Colorado tried it the way we are and decided that fielding was more of a priority while we think fielding will come around. It did with Weeks for awhile until he couldn't make the throws and Prince is adequate at best since his bat is huge but Prince doesn't save the throws partly because he's 5'10" tall and he doesn't want to get run over and his scoops are inconsistant at best. Braun has amazing skills but like Prince is there for the bat.

 

Will the fielding come around or will we have a similar revelation 4-5 yrs from now that Colorado is enjoying now?

[RyDogg66]

All the more reason to put Gwynn (who's bat I am not a fan of) in CF, Braun in LF and Hall, a middle IF type, at 3b.

[Fatter than Joey]

It did with Weeks for awhile

 

Weeks -- even with his personal improvements, is still a bottom-feeder defensive 2b.

 

Will the fielding come around or will we have a similar revelation 4-5 yrs from now that Colorado is enjoying now?

 

Hopefully DM will learn from his mistakes in TX

[Fear The Chorizo]

All the more reason to put Gwynn (who's bat I am not a fan of) in CF, Braun in LF and Hall, a middle IF type, at 3b.

 

I would also like to see the organization go this route, rather than spending 10 million+ per year for a free agent outfielder or third baseman and have those dollars limit the amount of money that the Brewers can spend on acquiring/extending pitching and eventually signing as many of the young, pre-arby players currently on the Brewers' roster several years from now.

 

If the Brewers don't think Gwynn is an everyday outfielder, they can sit him on days when a lefty pitcher starts, move Hart over to center, and put a Mench, Dillon, or another RH outfield bat out in RF. On the days when Gwynn isn't the lineup, he becomes a valuable asset as a pinch runner or defensive replacement.

 

The Brewers have plenty of offense to make up for the perceived lack of Gwynn's bat if he's playing good D in center, and allowing both Hall and Braun to improve the overall team defense by playing in different positions. (Braun may struggle in left, but a cardboard cutout of his likeness in LF would be a better team defender than what he did at 3rd in 07).

[Fear The Chorizo]

The relation I want to make with the Brewers is that Fielder, Braun and Weeks are not great fielders and that Colorado tried it the way we are and decided that fielding was more of a priority while we think fielding will come around.

 

I agree with you, but the only thing I want to add is that in order to win at Coors Field, you need to have a great defensive team, moreso than playing at Miller Park. Coors field has such an expansive outfield, and the infield plays notoriously fast - pitchers have enough trouble dealing with the altitude, adding to their troubles by committing errors and having limited defensive range turns their job into a nightmare.

 

Judging by their home/road record disparity over the past two seasons, the Brewers have a roster that can play more than well enough at home - maybe part of their problem on the road is that the ballparks that give a distinct advantage to pitching and defense expose Milwaukee's weaknesses. Specifically from 07, I'm thinking Petco, whatever San Fran's park is now called, Dodger stadium, Coors Field, PNC (difficult place to hit for righties), RFK, Turner field - the Brewers were bad for many other reasons on the road everywhere they played, but they got flat-out dominated in games they played in these parks to the tune of a 5-22 record!

[homer]

I think Gwynn's defense is overrated. Given he wouldn't come close to what Hall did offensively last year (which wasn't much) I doubt he would provide that much extra value - maybe less.

 

If you really want to improve the D, move Braun to left, Hall to third, play Hart in center, and pick up a free agent to play right (like Fukudome).

[bklynbrewcrew]

If Gwynn wasnt basically an automatic out I would somewhat be on board with this. Unfortunately his offense is so deficient that he needs to be traded or sit on the bench as a 5th outfielder/ defensive replacement.

[RoseBowlMtg]

My 10 yr old boy just turned me onto ch 1105 in Milwaukee Time Warner called sportsskool I believe. Tony Gwynn Sr teaches hitting and Jr is the left handed batting demonstrating. A very cool channel giving sports pointers and Tony looks like he knows what he's doing. Check it out.

[JohnBriggs12]

If you want to improve the Brewer defense, then Callix Crabbe has to be in the discussion. He made 4 errors in 130 games.

 

Oh yeah, he drew 67 walks (at 5-7, he's got a very small strikezone), and has exhibited more extra base pop than has Gwynn. Yet we never hear his name brought up.

 

Weeks has the tools to play center (with Hall to LF) or he could just take over in left. I wouldn't move Braun just yet, because moving around a bunch of guys might defeat the purpose.

[RyDogg66]

We should see about keeping SOME player at their natural positions. Im not a fan of moving Weeks to CF, just like I wasnt a fan of moving Hall to CF. CF isnt just a position you can learn over night, or in spring training. Guys like Edmonds, Andruw Jones, Griffey in his prime, were playing their entire careers in CF. This team has more than enough offense, IMO, and really needs to improve the defense. It's somewhat similar to in football (oh, God, please dont move this post toe lambeauleap.net) when you can improve your defensive backs by improving your defensive line/pass rush. By improving our defense we can make all of our pitchers better, rather than bringing in a pitcher and making him worse by letting an awful defense play behind him.

 

Weeks, Fielder and Braun will always be average to below average fielders, depending on where they are playing. I'd just try to keep them at positions where defense is least important (like LF and 1B). Regardless of what we do with Gwynn, Hall needs to be at 3b and Braun needs to be in Left Field. Gabe Gross can play CF or Corey Hart, with the other in RF.

[1992casey]

A lot of sabermetricians will say that run differential is run differential and that the combination of pitching, defense, or hitting that creates it doesn't matter much.

 

About a year ago, on the radio, a Baseball Prospectus guy said the 'older school' train of thought, emphasizing pitching and defense in the playoffs, is reemerging. When talking about pitching, he specifically singled out the closer.

 

Increased emphasis on pitching/defense in the playoffs would make sense; more games are played in run-constrained environments. Of course, the same run-constraint issues would apply in close regular season games, especially in games featuring two good starting pitchers.

 

Colorado is an animal all it's own. I can't see any way around a stronger-than-usual emphasis on pitching and defense. The Coors outfield is huge. As far as pitchers, care has to be taken to find guys whose pitches survive the thin air.

[homer]

It also helps that Colorado is not only good defensively but good offensively too. I mean they scored the second most runs in the league. It's not like they had a bunch of singles hitters running out there everyday. I don't think Holliday, Hawpe, or Atkins were drafted because of their defensive acumen. I think what Hurdle is talking about is the pickup of Tavaras to cover that cavernous centerfield, the pickup of Matsui to play 2B, and possibly drafting Tulowitzki.

 

And it's not like the Rockies have never tried to get pitching - they paid a ton of money for Hampton and Daryl Kile. The only difference now is that they grew some guys on their farm system (Cook, Francis) who don't completely wilt at home. And I believe they have a pretty strong bullpen to boot - not sure about that though.

[RyDogg66]

Humidor has to be taken into affect as well. I was watching Mythbusters last night and they tested balls kept in a humidor while controlling bat and pitch speed. They tested them with "regular" balls and dried out balls and the humid balls did not go nearly as far as the others, with the really dry ones going the furthest.

 

As far as sabermetrics and run differential go, Im not sold on defensive metrics and their reliability, at least not to the extent that I am offensive ones.

[RoseBowlMtg]

I don't think Holliday, Hawpe, or Atkins were drafted because of their defensive acumen.

So true homer: Let's see where those three were drafted and who the Brewers drafted around there:

 

1998 7th round pick 210 Matt Holliday: with the 206th pick Milwaukee chose Jason Fox

 

2000 5th round pick 137 Garrett Atkins: with the 111th pick Milwaukee chose Eric Henderson

 

2000 11th round pick 317 Brad Hawpe: with the 291st pick Milwaukee chose Brian Nielsen: (4 picks after Hawpe: pick 321 Corey Hart)

 

Nice stud players picked that late. Is that coaching, high altitude, pure luck or something else?

[colbyjack]

All good teams, in any sport at any level, have to be good in all phases of the game to ultimately be successful at the highest level. This really isn't anything new, but to get to the promised land the Brewers are going to have to hit, pitch and field well to win it all.

 

However, given the way the Brewers have procured talent, I would much rather see the team target on player that have the natural abilities to hit and hit for power (Braun, Weeks, Fielder, LaPorta, etc.) than their abilities to field a baseball. Fielding can be improved upon a lot easier than one's hitting ability IMO, and I hope the Brewers make that point very clear this offseason with a few of the more notable culprits.

[MNBrew]

A couple fast comments:

 

- Defense does come around:

 

1) Hall was a countless times worse defensive infielder than Braun when Hall first came up. Remember Royster teaching him fielding basics that first September? Now we talk about Hall like he's dependable defensively in the infield (although I'd contend he's really still only average).

2) Jenkins wasn't much better than Izzy Alcantara when he first came up -- his defense was not to be trusted at all.

 

Weeks also has better tools than Hall and has already shown a greater improvement in a shorter amount of time. I seem to recall that Braun was a good defensive shortstop in college. I'll bet there's still some improvement to his fielding game, too.

 

- Lending to the above first point, the Brewers' young hitters were brought up fast through the system for their offense, not their defense. Their defense just had to improve enough to be passable. It wasn't major-league-caliber "good" yet. Time should continue to help.

 

- To connect the Brewers' going downhill and Braun's arrival in the majors is an example of selective, convenient, and misguided reasoning. The pitching went to heck not because of the defense but because the starters pitched generally poorly and inefficiently (high pitch count for low inning totals) for all of July & August, the bullpen was overused and became very inefficient, and because most of the hitters -- especially the veterans!!!!! -- didn't contribute for crap. To blame the decline largely on the defense is absurd.

 

- That said, I do completely agree that the defense MUST improve. So must the pitching. And, frankly, so must the situational hitting -- as much as the first two areas. If all 3 areas improve markedly without a major offensive decline, the Brewers are serious contenders. If 2 or fewer improve, the odds wouldn't seem to be in their favor.

[endaround]

Hall was nowhere near as bad as Braun. Braun is the worst fielding 3B by every single metric. Its not even close.

 

And the defense is why the pitchers never could go late into games. Is the pitching great? No. But it basically gave the Brewers what was expected heading into the season. The defense was the main problem. And its the one thats the most fixable at lowest cost, its just whether or not the Brewers are brave enough to pull the trigger on it.

[Fatter than Joey]

To connect the Brewers' going downhill and Braun's arrival in the majors is an example of selective, convenient, and misguided reasoning.

 

I wish you would elaborate more on this -- Upon Brauns arrival we had an injection of OPS. Why didn't we win more games? -- Lack of defense had a hand in it for certain.

 

The pitching went to heck not because of the defense but because the starters pitched generally poorly and inefficiently (high pitch count for low inning totals)

 

Perhaps the pitch count/inning rose because our D was making errors, or not making plays they should have? I don't know how a person can look at pitching results (in this case, runs scored) and not take a look at if a pitcher's D helped or hurt his cause.

 

the bullpen was overused and became very inefficient

 

I agree Ned Yost sucks.

 

and because most of the hitters -- especially the veterans!!!!! -- didn't contribute for crap.

 

What veterans? -- our lineup and the core thereof, is anchored by our young studs. I certainly can concede some of our vets came up short -- but most of our vets were situational players.

 

To blame the decline largely on the defense is absurd.

 

Really? -- "Largely" of course is your word, but if you watched the games, and walk away thinking our defense didn't leave games on the table, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

That said, I do completely agree that the defense MUST improve.

 

Really? -- It sounds like to me based on your previous statements, the defense wasn't a substantial hurdle this last season, why then MUST our defense improve? -- It looks to me that you want better vet production, and guys like Suppan/Bush/Cappy to decide to quit sucking.

 

Defense in my opinion is the #1 problem the Brewers have -- if Weeks/Braun/Hall/Prince are average fielders, I believe then that this team (after firing Yost and probably Melvin) can be a playoff team -- that is to say I think the offensive and pitching are good enough. If we stand pat with our D, we better get a bunch of pitchers that strike out 10+ batters in 7IP.

[RoseBowlMtg]

Is there a stat out there displaying the missed double plays which are not errors?

 

How about the times Prince comes off the bag either because of his shortness or afraid of a collision?

 

I heard about the stats that advance runners not by sacrafice. How do we rank there?

 

The little things this team doesn't fare well with I imagine.

[1992casey]

Those are the kind of things that defensive metrics miss out on, further complicating the task of assigning value to defense. "Missed double plays that aren't errors" and "comes off the bag" are examples that make the situation even worse. There's no objective way to count them that I can think of.

 

When you have a situation like endaround points out (being at the bottom of "every single metric"), you can probably start feeling secure with what you're getting from the stats.

 

Not advancing runners by sacrifice can probably be counted pretty accurately; I don't know who conveniently offers that stat, though.

[sbrylski]

Rockies, 2006 - 813 runs

Rockies, 2007 - 860 runs

 

There is a big difference in sacrificing offense to better you defense (like we'd be doing by starting Gwynn) and just getting better all around, obviously.

 

The Rockies replaced CF Sullivan (79 OPS+) and SS Barmes (49 OPS+) with Taveras (89) and Tulowitzki (109). Those were two offensive and defensive upgrades, especially at SS. If you want to follow this Rockies model, I'm right there with you (though not sure how we're going to do it). Just don't think sacrificing offense for defense was the Rockies model this year.

 

Our defense is bad, this we all know. This is just another thread that's already breaking down into a defensive statistics argument when everyone here agrees with each other. But I think the only way to improve our defense without hurting our team is just with our current players development. Braun, Weeks, and Hall all have the potential to get better at their position. We could see an upgrade in LF defense this offseason. We'll never be a top defensive team, but we should see some improvement without going defense crazy in the offseason.

[colbyjack]

I don't know how they break down statistically, but I was under the impression that Holliday and Hawpe weren't exactly the rangiest defensive outfielders. I know part of the reason they wanted to get Taveras was to get a guy who had the speed to cover a tremendous amount of ground in their already spacious outfield. Troy Tulowitzki obviously has made a huge impression with their infield D'.

 

The Brewers do have some room for improvement, but I think the two biggest culprits on defense with the biggest margin for improvement are Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder. RoseBowlMtg made a good point about Fielder's height. Remember when Richie Sexson made Jose Hernandez look like Ozzie Smith? If Fielder were better overall he may make the entire infield defense look that much better, but clearly he isn't going anywhere. Todd Helton on the other hand for the Rockies has always been a solid all-around player and has stabilized their infield defense the past 10 years.

 

Sam makes a good point about how the Rockies scored more runs this past year, so it's not like they're all about pitching and defense.