What is a "professional hitter"?

[monkeyman343434]

I agree with the replies that a professional hitter is someone who works the count, has a high OBP, moves the runner over when the situation presents itself, all of the small things that add up over the course of the season, I'd hope if Melvin is able to pick up a hitter like this, he hits 2nd, with weeks still leading off, braun 3, prince 4 and hart 5, i would say a few examples of this type of player (although none of which i could see being on the brewers next year) would be placido polanco, edgar renteria, and freddy sanchez

[Oldcity]

Except those guys (Freddy Sanchez, Placido Polanco) aren't really what I have in mind. I want a guy who can work the count and draw a lot of walks. Sanchez has a decent OBP but that's only because of his batting average, which is a pretty empty .300+. Those guys are free swingers who happened to have pretty good batting averages this year.

 

I'd prefer a player like Gross to someone like that. Someone like Austin Kearns, Kevin Millar, Dan Johnson, Gregg Zaun, Casy Kotchman, Ryan Church, Conor Jackson, etc. Now some of these players wouldn't fit with the Brewers (some only play first), but you get the idea. They're nice players, but you could probably find one somewhere who isn't too difficult to get.

[sbrylski]

I'd prefer a player like Gross to someone like that. Someone like Austin Kearns, Kevin Millar, Dan Johnson, Gregg Zaun, Casy Kotchman, Ryan Church, Conor Jackson, etc. Now some of these players wouldn't fit with the Brewers (some only play first), but you get the idea. They're nice players, but you could probably find one somewhere who isn't too difficult to get.

I just made a lengthy post about aquiring Kearns (and mentioned Church) in the trade forum. Go support it!

[JohnBriggs12]

Professional hitter: Veteran, consistent run producer can hit .280-.300 year after year. Makes contact therefore not a ton of walks but will not expand the zone ala Estrada either. Hits all kinds of pitching. Carlos Lee was the perfect example of a professional hitter.

 

Another who fits the description to a tee might be available via trade:

 

Raul Ibanez

 

I know I'm a broken record having mentioned this guy in the trade forums, but he totally fits the descpription of a professional hitter. Melvin acknowledging that he is looking for a professional hitter, tells me that Ibanez is on his radar.

 

Those of you who've been long time readers of this forum may recall I sniffed out the Podsednik for Lee deal three years ago before it happened. I have the same feeling this offseason about Ibanez.

 

Another name that might qualify: Shannon Stewart. Not a huge run producer, but he showed he was healthy this season and he's a veteran bat who will hit around .300. I recall reading the Brewers had some interest last offseason and now that he's been healthy I wouldn't doubt there's renewed interest on Melvin's part. Stewart will be a free agent.

[Ennder]

Professional hitter: Veteran, consistent run producer can hit .280-.300 year after year. Makes contact therefore not a ton of walks but will not expand the zone ala Estrada either. Hits all kinds of pitching. Carlos Lee was the perfect example of a professional hitter

 

I really hope we dont' go out of our way to pick up empty AVG hitters like this becuase they are 'professional'. I want guys who will talk walks, that is hitting like a professional to me.

[JohnBriggs12]

"I want guys who will take walks, that is hitting like a professional to me"

 

Ender does that mean you don't consider Braun, Hardy, and Hart to have been professional this year because their walk totals were low?

 

I think Melvin is figuring that Braun will naturally become more selective as Fielder did this year and you will see both of them drawing a lot of walks as pitchers pitch around them. But behind them they will need guys who will more reliably get that RBI single instead of the Jenkins/Hall strikeout trying for that 3 run HR. Hart emerged late as a guy like that and they could use one more, preferably from the left side.

 

Walks are just part of being a professional hitter. The two guys I mentioned, walk at about an average rate, but in the case of Ibanez, he drives in runs at a rate that is more than just coincidence, but is indicative of the ability to hit situationally. I'd much prefer Ibanez over Stewart because he's LH, has more power, and drives in more runs. But they have to give up more to get him, so Stewart is a fallback type.

 

I'm sure Melvin thought he was getting that professional hitter in Estrada. Certainly the lack of walks from Estrada hurt his value, but just as disconcerting were his lack of RBI's and clutch hits. Melvin figured he could live without the walks from Estrada if he got the run production. He didn't get that.

[homer]

I don't think Melvin is as concerned with getting guys to drive in runs as he is guys that are adept at getting on base so people like Braun, Fielder, and Hart can drive THEM in.

[rluzinski]

The Brewers need a real #2 hitter. A guy who can get on base over 35% of the time. Whether by hit, walk, or HBP, I don't care. Braun, Fielder and Hart will be the ones driving in runs for several years.

[sbrylski]

Certainly the lack of walks from Estrada hurt his value, but just as disconcerting were his lack of RBI's and clutch hits.

 

Really, his lack of RBI's and clutch hits worry you? He hit better with runners on base than the bases empty, though a little worse when they were in scoring position. He did have two grand slams as well, right? He was great the year before with RISP. Its just small sample fluctuation. For his career he hits 20 points better with RISP, and OPS over 100 points better! So its a little dissapointing, but I have zero concern over that going foward. I want to see the walks.

[bjkrautk]

Walks are just part of being a professional hitter. The two guys I mentioned, walk at about an average rate, but in the case of Ibanez, he drives in runs at a rate that is more than just coincidence, but is indicative of the ability to hit situationally. I'd much prefer Ibanez over Stewart because he's LH, has more power, and drives in more runs. But they have to give up more to get him, so Stewart is a fallback type.

 

I'm sure Melvin thought he was getting that professional hitter in Estrada. Certainly the lack of walks from Estrada hurt his value, but just as disconcerting were his lack of RBI's and clutch hits. Melvin figured he could live without the walks from Estrada if he got the run production. He didn't get that.

I think JohnBriggs12 brings up a good point here: part of what I would consider being a 'professional hitter' is not leaving runs out there on the field. For instance, leaving a runner stranded @ 3b with 0-1 outs (particularly by striking out) = non-professional hitting. I tend to think of professional hitting as situation-driven, about having a plan for every plate appearance, and sticking to that plan (and having the right plan, to the extent that there is a 'right' way to approach any situation in baseball). It's a guy who subscribes to playing A-B-C baseball, whether that means getting on-base, getting runners into scoring position, or getting those runners in.

 

In other words, it's about being non-3TO.

 

It doesn't mean being a non-productive hitter (someone else mentioned Carlos Lee; Tony Gwynn Sr. was the walking embodiment of a professional hitter, IMO), and it does involve a level of selectivity at the plate -- but not selectivity for its own sake. Some times the best pitch you see in an AB is the first one.

[homer]

Also, I think we are confusing what Melvin meant and what we think it means. Melvin mentioned high OBP in the call....to me 'professional hitter' means:

 

in no order of importance:

1) works the count (i.e. patient)

2) doesn't get fooled often

3) approach is consistent with situation

4) gets on base

[JohnBriggs12]

I've got another available guy who is the epitome of "professional hitter": Cliff Floyd.

 

Floyd will be a free agent and according to article in today's Sun Times, it's likely he will "test the market" before deciding if he will retire or not. The article indicates he won't come back to be in a backup role, presumably meaning it would have to be at least in a platoon role. He's also wanting the situation to fit his family needs, which could work in Brewers' favor being close to Floyd's home.

 

Now, Floyd's downsides are obvious. He has bad wheels and has to sit from time to time and doesn't cover much ground any more in the OF. But this guy can still hit and yes, he'll take a walk too. You'd need a good platoon partner, ideally one who could double as defensive replacement too, but Floyd's a name to consider.

 

It could be ironic if the Brewers were to sign Floyd and Jenkins (blasphemy) ends up a Cub.

[homer]

I still think the best option is Fukudome from Japan.

 

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=1064

 

His Japan League stats match up with Hideki Matsui's numbers there albeit with less power.

 

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=163

 

I'm not sure if he'd hit 25 - 30 home runs, but he'd get on base and hit for average.

[don1481]

Professional hitter? We're not talking Lenny Harris, are we...?

 

In all seriousness, though, Cliff Floyd's track record is one filled with injuries. Do we really want to sign another Jenkins?

[brettac1]

I still think the best option is Fukudome from Japan.

 

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=1064

 

His Japan League stats match up with Hideki Matsui's numbers there albeit with less power.

 

http://www.japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=163

 

I'm not sure if he'd hit 25 - 30 home runs, but he'd get on base and hit for average.

I totally agree, but the chances the Brewers can get a pricey import like him are pretty slim.

 

[sbrylski]

Also, I think we are confusing what Melvin meant and what we think it means.

That's actually what I intended the thread to be about, what Melvin thinks it is. It turned into what we each think a professional hitter is, which is fine. Still a very good thread, if I don't say so myself.

 

[joepepsi]

The "professional hitter" tag has always bugged. The best professional hitters I can think of are Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, ARod, Pujols, Vlad, etc. But that's not who it refers to. "Professional hitter" mean Jeff Conine, who's just about the Worst Hitter in baseball. I suppose there are catchers or middle infielders with worse numbers, but they have a defensive value to counter their offensive negatives.

 

I'm guessing Doug means a Mark Loretta type. I wish JJ had that kind of patience, but he seems too intent of swinging at the first or second pitch every at bat. Hardy with a .360 obp would be an All Star caliber ss.

[logan82]

JJ averages 3.85 pitches per plate appearance. Fielder 3.79. Hart 3.57.

[sbrylski]

I'm guessing Doug means a Mark Loretta type. I wish JJ had that kind of patience, but he seems too intent of swinging at the first or second pitch every at bat. Hardy with a .360 obp would be an All Star caliber ss.

 

He tried being patient in the first half of 2005 - it didn't work. He's a swinger, a pull hitter, and that's what he's good at. Definately good enough to be a long-term solution at SS, but not out of the two hole. 6-8 in the order he's excellent to have.

[JohnBriggs12]

"JJ seems too intent at swinging at the first or second pitch every at bat".

 

I think JJ took a lot of first pitch fastballs when I watched him. I think JJ's approach when batting 2nd was often to take the first pitch. But in that 2 hole, pitchers attacked the strike zone on him and got ahead of him. Once he got behind, he was forced to go after more pitcher's pitches. When he dropped in the order, he became more aggressive and more successful.

 

Batting 2nd is a very tough place to draw walks. When you're hitting with Weeks on, you might need to take pitches to allow him to run and you get behind in the count. When you're batting with bases empty, pitchers will not want to walk you with Braun and Fielder coming up. The Brewers don't really have the ideal guy for that spot. But how many teams have a 2 hole hitter slam 25 HR?

[joepepsi]

I suppose they really need a lefty batting second. Otherwise, I think Hart would be a good 2nd hitter. He seems to be able to drive whatever the pitcher throws at him. Gross seems the most logical choice for now. Ibanez is a good call, but he renders Gross to another season at a reduced role. Coco Crisp is someone who will probably be available. He's a switch hitter with speed, but doesn't really have the on base percentage that Doug is looking for.

[logan82]

I was thinking the same thing you guys were. It looked like he was giving Weeks a chance to steal a base. I seem to remember JJ taking quite a few first pitches right down the middle that I thought he could have crushed. I originally thought he would make a really good #2 hitter, but I think it takes him to far out of his natural approach. Hitting 6 or 7 might make him more effective.

[davego]

It was brought up that this team needs ob% to be in front of Braun/Prince/Hart et al. That could be someone to hit leadoff and have Rickie hit #2 or the other way around. That would put JJ #6 (I assume)...could be a real soild 1-6...

[bklynbrewcrew]

Gross can be the solid OBP guy that we need and he makes an excellent number 2 hitter. There is no reason to spend a lot of money on a "professional" hitter when we have one in Gabe Gross. A Gross/Dillon platoon is cheap and would be very productive. This team needs to spend the offseason looking for pitching and not worry so much about the offense. We need a solid defensive minded catcher like Laird and some bullpen arms and this team wins the division next year easily. Give Gross a chance, he is cheap and will do a very solid job.

[TooLiveBrew]

While Mench doesn't provide much OBP, he delivers 'professional' results against LHP. As long as he isn't due too much in arbitration, I'd go with bkbc's platoon idea with Gross, and be able to use Dillon as a sort of super-sub (Inf, OF, wherever he can play) and an additional part of the RH-side of the LF platoon.