Sheets to Mariners proposal

[bando1234]

Not that I want to get rid of Sheets but how about

 

Sheets & Tony Gwynn Jr to the Mariners for Jeff Clement & Adam Jones

[molitor fan]

That is an interesting proposal, though getting no pitching back makes that exact trade unlikely...I love the idea of getting Clement, and Jones is a very high level prospect, in fact, he is too high level of a guy for the m's to give up. Even with a guy like sheets, with his contract status, the mariners do not give both prospects up. Both are ready to start next year as rookies in my mind. Sheets to the M's is still intriguing to me, but Clement is the much more likely player to be given up than jones.

[sbrylski]

Put yourself in the M's shoes. They wouldn't do it.

[dadofandrew]

Jones should be an absolute untouchable, and he probably is.

[hardy7]

Why would the Mariners trade Adam Jones? He is their #1 prospect and Clementt is #2. I just don't see a team willing to trade their top 2 prospects.

[jackalope02ca]

George Sherrill. That is who I would want included in any deal. The guy would solidify our bullpen. A feel good story from a few years back as well as he played in the northern league and was discovered with Bobby Madritsch with the Winnipeg Goldeyes.

[Gopher74]

Yea, I don't think the M's would do this, and to be honest, I wouldn't want to do this.

 

I honestly don't think that Ben Sheets has been anything but unlucky the last couple years. I mean, a player doesn't go from a work horse(34 GS, 217, 220,237 02-04) to being soft. At least I don't believe that.

 

And I truly don't believe this team CAN do anything come playoff time without Ben Sheets, Gallardo and Suppan/Villanueva in their rotation. I think we need that Cleveland Indian formula. Two power pitchers, two power aces to win. I think we can get to the playoffs, even with Sheets missing SOME time next year, but I don't think we can do anything after.

 

Plus, I'm still holding out hope that we can swing a deal for Suppan after a bounce back year next year, and re-sign Sheets who is healthy for a complete season. Hell, maybe since he owns a franchise in Milwaukee, and he's been injured he'll cut us a break to the tune of 5/65. Who knows.

[qrk10000]

I actually have thought about this trade recently too and I think it could work out well for both teams. Jones and Clement are both young with a ton of potential, but both play positions that are currently filled on their roster. Kenji Johjima has done a nice job for Seattle and is signed through next season. He is certainly a lot older than Clement but has shown he can play well at the major league level, something Clement has not. Then in the outfield, if Seattle chooses to resign Jose Guillen, they will probably start 2008 with Guillen, Ichiro, and Raul Ibanez. Seattle is coming off a good season where they surprised a lot of people and failed largely because of depth in their pitching staff. Adding an ace like Ben Sheets would give them 4 decent starters, something that could possibly give them an edge over Anaheim. Plus, if they are interested in keeping their 2007 outfield together, TGJ would give them some speed and defense on the bench. They have another decent prospect in Balentien who could very well be on their roster in 2008. That brings up another discussion: would the Brewers trade Sheets for Clement and Balentien or Sheets and TGJ for Clement, Balentien, and George Sherrill or Sean Green?

 

From a Brewers prospective, they are taking a real chance here. You lose a #1 starter (albeit with a recent history of injuries) and a reserve outfielder for two stellar prospects. Jones hit the tar off the ball in the minors and could be a real offensive threat in the outfield. Clement looks like a great hitter but, as pointed out on this board in other threads, his glove is very questionable. The nice thing is that both of these guys do appear ready, though, which increases their value and potential. This is a risky trade, though, if they are hoping to compete in 2008. Sheets gave us 12 wins despite missing significant playing time and even though we have a lot of starters on this team, quantity does not always equal quality. Who on the current staff could step up as our new ace? They would most likely need to replace Sheets with another proven veteran from outside the organization and I am not sure how many of those are available this offseason. It is a tough call.

 

Great thread.

[Gopher74]

I actually have thought about this trade recently too and I think it could work out well for both teams. Jones and Clement are both young with a ton of potential, but both play positions that are currently filled on their roster. Kenji Johjima has done a nice job for Seattle and is signed through next season. He is certainly a lot older than Clement but has shown he can play well at the major league level, something Clement has not. Then in the outfield, if Seattle chooses to resign Jose Guillen, they will probably start 2008 with Guillen, Ichiro, and Raul Ibanez. Seattle is coming off a good season where they surprised a lot of people and failed largely because of depth in their pitching staff. Adding an ace like Ben Sheets would give them 4 decent starters, something that could possibly give them an edge over Anaheim. Plus, if they are interested in keeping their 2007 outfield together, TGJ would give them some speed and defense on the bench. They have another decent prospect in Balentien who could very well be on their roster in 2008. That brings up another discussion: would the Brewers trade Sheets for Clement and Balentien or Sheets and TGJ for Clement, Balentien, and George Sherrill or Sean Green?

 

From a Brewers prospective, they are taking a real chance here. You lose a #1 starter (albeit with a recent history of injuries) and a reserve outfielder for two stellar prospects. Jones hit the tar off the ball in the minors and could be a real offensive threat in the outfield. Clement looks like a great hitter but, as pointed out on this board in other threads, his glove is very questionable. The nice thing is that both of these guys do appear ready, though, which increases their value and potential. This is a risky trade, though, if they are hoping to compete in 2008. Sheets gave us 12 wins despite missing significant playing time and even though we have a lot of starters on this team, quantity does not always equal quality. Who on the current staff could step up as our new ace? They would most likely need to replace Sheets with another proven veteran from outside the organization and I am not sure how many of those are available this offseason. It is a tough call.

 

Great thread.

Well speaking of the biggest Ben Sheets fan in the world, I think that Yo has already supplanted Ben Sheets as our ace. I've argued like crazy against the Cappy or Suppan type people for a while now, but I think Yo's a power pitcher with fanstastic poise, stuff, and while it's early, it would appear durability.

 

 

 

So yea, I think we already have our ace. And beyond that, I think that this team has two guys who are going to experience big bounce back years next year in Suppan and Cappy(please don't tell me we got what we thought we were getting in Suppan, his last three years he averaged a 3.95 ERA. That's a long way from 4.62).

 

But yea, at the end of the day, I think you need those two aces at the top of the rotation, ala Cleveland in order to really win something.

[qrk10000]

Well speaking of the biggest Ben Sheets fan in the world, I think that Yo has already supplanted Ben Sheets as our ace. I've argued like crazy against the Cappy or Suppan type people for a while now, but I think Yo's a power pitcher with fanstastic poise, stuff, and while it's early, it would appear durability.

I acknowledged Ben's recent injury history and it has frustrated me quite a bit, too. We sorely missed Ben when he went down this year, though, because he was a guy we could count on for quality starts. There was a long stretch where our starters were struggling to put up 5 innings up work and that led to our bullpen really being overworked. Having Sheets during that span might have been the difference between making the playoffs and finishing 83-79. If your argument is that we need to trade him because he could get hurt again this year and his value would be even lower, I respect that. I just think he is one of the few guys on this staff capable of being a true #1 or #2.

I love Yo. I think he is going to have a great career and I think he will be a better pitcher than Ben Sheets. I really do. However, I think it is unfair to make him an ace at this point in his career. Sophomore seasons are usually tough on young pitchers and I don't want to see him get overworked either. I would much rather we eased him into the role in 2008 so that by 2009 and 2010, we can count on him for 34 starts and 200 + innings.

I have no problem with Suppan but expecting him to be a #1 or #2 is unrealistic, especially for a team hoping to contend. He has never had the stuff to be a top starter. I think he can be a nice #3 for us, though, especially in terms of durability and experience.

Capuano is a question mark. I actually didn't think he pitched that poorly in 2007, but he fits in much better as a #3 or #4, than as a top of the rotation guy. He may bounce back nicely in 2008 but he may also not even make the team. He is no longer a sure thing.

That leaves Dave Bush and Carlos Villanueva. I love Carlos, but he is even less ready than Yo to be a top-of-the-rotation starter. Bush is far too inconsistent although he does eat up a lot of innings.

This basically leaves us with a rotation filled with 3, 4, and 5 starters if Sheets is traded. You can argue that many teams have this same problem, but looking at all of this year's playoff teams suggest otherwise: Arizona - Webb & Davis, Phillies - Hamels, Cubs - Zambrano & Lilly, Rockies - Francis (this is a stretch but Francis keeps getting better and better), Boston - Beckett, Schilling, and Wakefield, Yankees - Wang, Pettite, and Clemens, Indians - Carmona & Sabathia, and Angels - Lackey & Escobar. All of these teams had "ace type" pitchers leading their staffs.

I just think that if we trade Sheets, and I am certainly open to doing so, we will need to consider bringing in someone to replace him. I am not impressed with the free agent list for this offseason so it would probably have to be through a trade and then there is the question of what we have to offer in a trade. I would be all for trading with Seattle, especially if they were willing to give us a top outfield prospect and a top catching prospect. I just don't like the idea of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Again, though, I respect your opinion if your reasoning for trading Sheets is based on his value digressing due to injuries. That really may be true and is worth consideration.

[Gopher74]

Well speaking of the biggest Ben Sheets fan in the world, I think that Yo has already supplanted Ben Sheets as our ace. I've argued like crazy against the Cappy or Suppan type people for a while now, but I think Yo's a power pitcher with fanstastic poise, stuff, and while it's early, it would appear durability.

I acknowledged Ben's recent injury history and it has frustrated me quite a bit, too. We sorely missed Ben when he went down this year, though, because he was a guy we could count on for quality starts. There was a long stretch where our starters were struggling to put up 5 innings up work and that led to our bullpen really being overworked. Having Sheets during that span might have been the difference between making the playoffs and finishing 83-79. If your argument is that we need to trade him because he could get hurt again this year and his value would be even lower, I respect that. I just think he is one of the few guys on this staff capable of being a true #1 or #2.

 

I love Yo. I think he is going to have a great career and I think he will be a better pitcher than Ben Sheets. I really do. However, I think it is unfair to make him an ace at this point in his career. Sophomore seasons are usually tough on young pitchers and I don't want to see him get overworked either. I would much rather we eased him into the role in 2008 so that by 2009 and 2010, we can count on him for 34 starts and 200 + innings.

 

I have no problem with Suppan but expecting him to be a #1 or #2 is unrealistic, especially for a team hoping to contend. He has never had the stuff to be a top starter. I think he can be a nice #3 for us, though, especially in terms of durability and experience.

 

Capuano is a question mark. I actually didn't think he pitched that poorly in 2007, but he fits in much better as a #3 or #4, than as a top of the rotation guy. He may bounce back nicely in 2008 but he may also not even make the team. He is no longer a sure thing.

 

That leaves Dave Bush and Carlos Villanueva. I love Carlos, but he is even less ready than Yo to be a top-of-the-rotation starter. Bush is far too inconsistent although he does eat up a lot of innings.

 

This basically leaves us with a rotation filled with 3, 4, and 5 starters if Sheets is traded. You can argue that many teams have this same problem, but looking at all of this year's playoff teams suggest otherwise: Arizona - Webb & Davis, Phillies - Hamels, Cubs - Zambrano & Lilly, Rockies - Francis (this is a stretch but Francis keeps getting better and better), Boston - Beckett, Schilling, and Wakefield, Yankees - Wang, Pettite, and Clemens, Indians - Carmona & Sabathia, and Angels - Lackey & Escobar. All of these teams had "ace type" pitchers leading their staffs.

 

I just think that if we trade Sheets, and I am certainly open to doing so, we will need to consider bringing in someone to replace him. I am not impressed with the free agent list for this offseason so it would probably have to be through a trade and then there is the question of what we have to offer in a trade. I would be all for trading with Seattle, especially if they were willing to give us a top outfield prospect and a top catching prospect. I just don't like the idea of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Again, though, I respect your opinion if your reasoning for trading Sheets is based on his value digressing due to injuries. That really may be true and is worth consideration.

Well, first of all, my argument is definitely NOT that we need to trade him. I'd be thrilled with keeping him, and in fact, I think we need to if we're ever going to make any real noise come Sept. My argument was only that at this point, Gallardo's our ace. In fact, I said in the last sentence that I thought you needed Sheets and Gallardo(hence the two aces).

 

As for working him into our rotation, I don't know how long you wait. When he was your best pitcher this year, I just don't see the need to ease him into anything. The fact is, he's just that good. And for the soph slump with pitchers, I just don't buy into using those types of generalizations to determine what you do with your young studs. I mean, Verlander was a stud this year, Papelbon was just as good this year...ect..ect..ect..

But I also think that Villy is ready to jump in and start 32-33 games next year. I don't think he's a 1 or a 2, but I think he's a solid 3. And I think you can win if you had to with an ace, and 3 3's...which is kinda what I think we have without Sheets. Gallardo-ace, Suppan(based on the three years prior to him coming here)3, Cappy3, and Villy 3.

 

[ILuvDaBush]

Well there was also some lefty, who may not get the pub of Yo but has a similar ceiling, though Yo's mind is much further along. Manuel Parra...Perfecto Parra....perfect stopper. As for the trade....Clement would be the ideal candidate to target, though I'm a huge fan of the Angel. But Clement can hold down the pitching staff for the next 3 years while the Angel makes his comeback to relevance. And Adam Jones....crazy! Another good candidate to target on their team is Brandon Morrow. But given he was drafted 2 years ago, and is already in the majors, it may be a difficult sell.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Sheets as a full no trade clause thru 2007, FYI

[And That]

Sheets as a full no trade clause thru 2007, FYI

The 2007 season is over when the World Series gets over. This wouldn't be an issue.

 

[tigerbrew]

I really like the idea of getting Jeff Clement to replace Estrada.

[Dogger192003]

I like the idea of targeting Clement to split time with Estrada and eventually take over the full time duties. We don't realistically have a young catcher on the immediate horizon obviously. Clement probably isn't ready to catch 120 plus games next year though.

 

That said, I believe Seattle is a fit with the Brewers for a possible deal. We have 8 possible starters and they need 1 or 2 more to go with Hernandez, Washburn, and Bautista. They certainly have other options like Horatio Ramirez, who just hasn't been able to live up to expectations, Feierabend, Morrow, and Baek as other possibilities, but they don't have lot's of experience. I'd think they may like someone like Cappy, Bush, or Vargas.

 

The possibility of Ibanez has been brought up here a bit as well especially if they resign Guillen and believe Jones is ready for an everyday job.

 

Maybe Bush, Gwynn (helps move Ichiro back to a corner outfield spot and DH Guillen), and other prospect(s) for Clement, Ibanez, RP

[Gopher74]

I really like the idea of getting Jeff Clement to replace Estrada.

I really like the idea of a spring backstop to replace Estrada.

 

Then at least we won't actually expect our catcher to move, and thus, won't be disappointed.

[JohnBriggs12]

You might get Clement and Ibanez for Sheets and Gwynn or Gross if you sweetened that offer a little more but you wouldn't get Jones and Clement, and you certainly wouldn't get both Ibanez and Clement for Bush and Gwynn. Seattle might give you Ibanez for Bush and Gwynn, but not Clement alone for those two.

[endaround]

Bush and Gwynn for Clement and Ibanez is more than fair. An average cheap, in his prime starting pitcher with 3 arby years left is worth way more than 1 year of a mid 30s corner outfielder who can no longer play defense.

[Dogger192003]

I think Bush is undervalued here because he had a so-so year this year. He has pitched almost 400 innings the past two years and has a 4.5 career ERA. That alone would warrant a good contract on the open market, much less for a guy who has arby years left. Add in the fact he would move to roomier ballparks in the AL West vs. the small parks in the NL Central. I don't really want the Brewers to deal Bush for the reasons I just gave, I believe he is quite valuable to us, but young catching won't come cheap either. (eg. Saltalamachia for Teixiera deal)

[JohnBriggs12]

"An average cheap in his prime starting pitcher with 3 arby years left is worth way more than 1 year of a mid 30's corner OF who can no longer play defense"

 

Except the two key guys in the deal would be Bush and Clement and that's who you have to compare.

 

It's a bit of a stretch to call Bush average (his 5.12 ERA translates to around 5.40 in the AL), but I will agree he's more valuable than Ibanez especially for a team like Seattle that has a problem at the end of their rotation. But Clement is a top of the line catching prospect who was drafted ahead of Braun and who won't be arby eligible for 3 more years. Given the paucity of talent at the position, Clement alone is worth more than Bush, forget Ibanez.

 

Unless you think Gwynn is more than a handy 5th OF who can give you a little speed and defense, I think to a team as close as the Brewers are, Ibanez has a lot more value in 2008 than does Gwynn, even with some defensive issues (though he had double digit assists the last two seasons).

 

To summarize, Bush for Clement straight up would favor the Brewers, and Ibanez for Gwynn straight up also favors the Brewers. It could be argued that each of these is fairly close, but combined, it clearly favors the Brewers which is why it will never happen.

[valpocrewsader]

...Clementt is #2. I just don't see a team willing to trade their top 2 prospects.

 

Except that he's pretty blocked by Kenji, right? And they have another young catcher, Rob Johnson? What's the ceiling on him? If the M's have a couple top catching prospects who are ready, they seem like a good potential trade fit for the Brewers with Kenji in place at the mlb level.

[Katuluu]

They can always DH Clement. The guy is known more for his bat anyways. It really shouldn't be much of a problem for them to find him AB's if they really want too.

[brettac1]

Plus, Johjima isn't good enough to "block" a guy like Clement. He's a catcher in his 30's coming off a .287/.322/.433 season. Basically, he's in "he hits good for a catcher" territory. Clement just hits good.

[twobrewers]

Is Clement even that good?

 

I see he has played in the Arizona Fall League the past 3 years. This year he is playing there as a 24 year old. He has around an .850 OPS. Good but not really amazing.

 

Geovany Soto put up much better numbers in the PCL. And Jeremy Brown was pretty similar to Clement. (For pete's sake Clement had an OPS of .867 while Rottino had a OPS of .809)

 

I am not saying he isn't good. Just not Sheets good.