Catching situation for 2008 (Merged: "Maybe we'll have a better catcher next year!")

[endaround]

People are talking about good defensive catchers, no reason for Moeller's name to pop up.

[MNBrew]

When putting numbers out there to compare Estrada & Miller, it's a little unfair to point out the discrepancy of errors, PB, etc., without also noting the pctg. of playing time each guy got. If Estrada played, say, 3x as much as Miller, then the relative discrepancy isn't necessarily so great.

 

Miller may still be a better defensive catcher than Estrada, and I wouldn't argue that. But Miller played so much less than Estrada, so it's hardly the same comparison as if their PT was relatively equal.

 

Otherwise, going to the level of the absurd, you could also posit that Rottino's a better defensive catcher because he had no E or PB in the bigs this year.

[And That]

The only way our catching situation gets any better next year is if Melvin convinces Michael Barret to come here and seek sweet vengeance on the Cubbies, and at the same time is able to trade Estrada for something or another, preferably relief help.

 

I'm interested in Ramon Castro if I'm Doug Melvin, and I'm also asking the Reds if they would be interested in giving up an under-performing David Ross. However, I think the ideal situation would be Barret and Miller, if he's willing to come back. A light work schedule in '07 combined with a long offseason could convince him to come back one more time, and he's worth it for $1.5 mil or so.

[danzig6767]

I was a catcher from age 8 till i was 17 and loved every minute of it.I played some shortstop and pitched also,but nothing compared to catcher because you are involved in every play.

 

It just blows me away that in a world with with so many people playing baseball that the catcher position can be so weak that a guy like Estrada is a decent starting catcher and scrubs like Gary Bennett can keep a job every year.How did this happen?Why is it so rare to find a catcher that can be solid defensively and also be able to hit?Was i rare in loving to be a catcher and most skilled young baseball players find the catcher position to be not desirable?

 

I'm just at a loss why their are so few notch catchers in the whole world.

[TooLiveBrew]

Part of it's the longevity issue, danzig. Both clubs and players want to protect their investment(s) and get the most out of players/themselves. I don't doubt that there are some good candidates at C, but when Joe Mauer is under 25 and you hear that the Twins consider moving him to 1B to prolong his career (just rumblings from time to time), I think you see what I'm getting at.

 

Another factor is that it's really, really hard to be a good defensive catcher at the MLB level, and it's really, really hard to be a good hitter at the MLB level. When you add those two factors together, it becomes (officially http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif) really, really, really, really hard to be both a good catcher and good hitter. Plus the focus on OBP and SABR-metric style stats in recent years has diminished the tolerance for C's like Henry Blanco - who many years ago may have been able to hold down a starting spot on their defense alone.

 

Interesting observation - I think I agree with you on that one, danzig. Where oh where have the catchers gone?

[Mass Haas]

It's time for the Homer Bush awards!

[Postseason2006]

Barrett although bad defensively is much better offensively than Estrada.

No, he's not. They have the same career OBP. Estrada has a better BA by 15 points (which means he walks less). Barrett's SLG is better, which appears to be because he has slightly better HR numbers and has a bit more speed, so he's actually legged out some triples. So no, Barrett is not much better offensively than Estrada.

 

 

I'm a little lazy to look this up but how many inning ending double plays to lose games did Barrett hit into and how many times did Barrett swing at first pitches?

[JohnBriggs12]

sbrylski06 wrote: "Yorvit hit .212 with a .618 OPS away from Coors this year"

 

True, but before becoming a Rocky, he hit .250 with a .693 OPS which is close to what his total numbers were this season. The "Coors effect" works two ways. Breaking balls don't break as much in Colorado, and hitters playing there get used to that so when the go on the road, they have to adjust again, hence they tend to hit worse on the road than they would had they not played so many games at Coors.

 

Nobody is saying Torrealba is an All Star, but by todays standards, he's a serviceable offensively (better than what Miller is at his advanced age for instance) and career wise he's respectable gunning down base runners at a 32% clip. He also apparently handles pitchers pretty well given the Rockies success.

 

I'd avoid Barrett like the plague. There's a reason the Cubs took off when they removed him from the lineup.

[sbrylski]

I'd avoid Barrett like the plague. There's a reason the Cubs took off when they removed him from the lineup.

Yeah, because everyone started hitting and the pitching stayed strong, particularly in the bullpen. I have a hard time attributing the Cubs rise to the removal of Barrett and replacement with scrubs, even as just one of the reasons.

[Diskono]

David Ross is similar to Rivera offensively, but he has been much better in the past. If we can get him, we also get the added bonus of not ever having to play against him!

 

Of course, that was my rationale for trying to sign Richard Hidalgo...glad we dodged that bullet.

[recte44]

Henry Blanco.

[MJLiverock]

Well we could be paying $13MM for a .294 OBP like Detroit

[JohnBriggs12]

The Phillies declined an option on Rod Barajas.

 

He's in that very good backup or marginal starter category somewhat like Torrealba. He's thrown out more than a third of attempted base stealers so he's above average in that category. He's at least worth considering.

[dadofandrew]

I must admit, the names thrown out here, hardly with any exception at all, are not as good as Estrada. Barrett has not hit as well or thrown out as high a % as Estrada for 3 years...as a "step up", that's quite underwhelming.

 

If you're looking to replace Miller, some of these names make sense, but not for Estrada.

[And That]

Barrett has not hit as well or thrown out as high a % as Estrada for 3 years...as a "step up", that's quite underwhelming.

Estrada's OPS+ the previous three seasons: 79, 91, 72

Barrett's OPS+ the previous three seasons: 68, 121, 113

 

Estrada's CS% the previous three seasons: 13%, 29%, 31%

Barrett's CS% the previous three seasons: 19%, 19%, 23%

 

As you are fond of saying:

 

Heh. Don't let facts get in the way.

[Ennder]

Posada is a FA isn't he? I'm just saying...

[dadofandrew]

I wonder if I just saw Barrett's CS% with SD?

 

As for the offense, I compared their career OPS's and they were quite similar, must have got confused with the 3 year CS% timeframe.

[TooLiveBrew]

I compared their career OPS's and they were quite similar

That's because, even though Barrett is roughly 4 months younger, he's had nearly 2 years more MLB service time. Estrada's career numbers are still coasting along on the strength of his aberrant 2004. Barrett's had much more offensive production in his MLB career than Estrada. He's had 5 seasons of an OPS+ of at least 94, where Estrada's only such season was the aforementioned 2004.

[And That]

Maybe more importantly, for an offensive sorely lacking in the OBP department,

 

Estrada's OBP the previous three seasons: .296, .328, .303

Barrett's OBP the previous three seasons: .281, .368, .345

 

Johnny's outlier is the high number, where Barrett's is the low number. I would be shocked if Barrett didn't bounce back and have an OBP somewhere around .340, while Estrada will likely be hanging around .300.

[UWRyan428]

Estrada is the Maradona of baseball....with none of the talent. And instead of attempting to acquire Yorvit Torrealba, why not target his backstop-mate, Chris Iannetta? Estrada/Vargas/Aquino for Fuentes/Iannetta? We just have to make sure Doug makes the call a few minutes after they pop the corks....or Theo pops the cork, and they're too distraught about their lack of quality starting pitching. "Vargas pitches REAL well in the water, and he has pitched in the NL West." Do it... Do it....