Catching situation for 2008 (Merged: "Maybe we'll have a better catcher next year!")

[sheethead]

Wow, I can't stand Estrada, but Rivera would be way worse. I think it's cool that he's managed to pop a few dingers the last couple Septembers, but he's not an everyday big leaguer (and probably not more than a third catcher that you stash in AAA).

 

I could say the same about Estrada.

[brettac1]

I don't think you can if you look at it even semi-objectively.

 

Rivera just is not as good as Estrada, as others have pointed out. I have been vocal about my total and utter dislike of Estrada since the day the Brewers acquired him, but Rivera has Estrada's worst qualities, except a step below. Seriously, I am the OG of Estrada "haters". I am Grandmaster Flash when it comes to this.

 

Still, you can't really say that Estrada shouldn't be a starter in the big leagues. Rivera was terrible in the PCL this season, and his reputation of being a bad defensive catcher, as well as an impatient hacker (yeah, as bad as Estrada, just he doesn't carry a decent average like Estrada can) have both been proven before. He's not a good player, and would be absolutely brutal if exposed to a full season's worth of MLB pitching.

[RockCoCougars]

What's the deal with Lou Palmisano? It seems he's been around forever. Heck, it seems like ages ago when he was involved with the stabbing while in Beloit. His offensive stats are nothing to write home about, but it looks like he has been a all-star almost every year. Is he still a prospect? The fact that he's still in AA would lead me to think no.

[endaround]

Rivera just likely had his two career years the past two season (2005, 2006). He's likely done as any type of hitting catcher.

 

That said, the Brewers could use to improve at catcher but where exactly is unknown. Maybe the Twins decide to trade Morales, assuming he recovers fully.

 

As for Lou, catchers don't stop being prospect until later than most. Truthfully he did ok this year for being in Huntsville.

[logan82]

Jeez, where were all you guys who dislike Estrada in February when I started a "Is Estrada Really an Upgrade?" thread. Man did I get blasted. I don't think his offense is much of a surprise. Maybe a little lower BA and OBP than expected, but not to much. He came over with big questions about his defense. I believe that the pitchers in Arizon were not to fond of him. He is about what I expected, except for the pitches in the dirt. Man does he suck at that. At least Moeller could block pitches in the dirt.

[igor67]

Palmisano's translation for this year .334 OBP and .399 SLG EQA of .259

Rottino's translation .324 OBP and .384 SLG EQA of .249

Rivera's translation for this year .264 OBP and .389 SLG EQA of .222

Estrada .302 OBP and .402 SLG EQA of .241 CS% 14

Miller .306 OBP and .362 SLG EQA of .235 CS% 27

 

Based on the fact that Rivera's last two offensive season were much better than this year and he had an unusually low batting average I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think he could out hit Miller next year and even Estrada. More importantly both catchers were outhit by the Captain and Rottino. I'm sure Palmisano is a better defender than Estrada, and how much worse can you get and still be allowed behind the plate. It is clear to me the Brewers can go in house and do no worse at catcher, and probably do better.

[crewcrazy]

Free Agent Catchers (Team, Age)

Sandy Alomar Jr. (NYM minors, 41)

Brad Ausmus (HOU, 38)

Paul Bako (BAL, 35)

Rod Barajas (PHI, 32)

Michael Barrett (SD, 30)

Gary Bennett (STL, 35)

Alberto Castillo (BAL minors, 37)

Ramon Castro (NYM, 31)

Einar Diaz (PIT minors, 34)

Mike DiFelice (NYM, 38)

Robert Fick (WAS, 33)

Todd Greene (SD minors, 36)

Jason Kendall (CHC, 33)

Jason LaRue (KC, 33)

Mike Lieberthal (LAD, 35; team option)

Paul Lo Duca (NYM, 35)

Javy Lopez (unemployed, 36)

Doug Mirabelli (BOS, 36)

Chad Moeller (LAD, 32)

Jose Molina (NYY, 32)

Josh Paul (TB, 32)

Mike Piazza (OAK, 39)

Jorge Posada (NYY, 36; player option)

Ivan Rodriguez (DET, 35; team option)

Kelly Stinnett (STL, 37)

Yorvit Torrealba (COL, 29)

Javier Valentin (CIN, 31; team option)

 

Not many intriguing names on that list, and the ones that are will probably be vastly overpaid (Posada, Pudge, etc.). I'd be surprised if Colorado and Cincy don't hang onto Torrealba and Valentin. Barrett's been so bad this year that I would probably still take Estrada over him (like Estrada, he's only valuable for his offense, and he hasn't provided any this year). Jose Molina's defense is a little interesting, but do you really want to waste a roster spot on a guy whose career line is .241/.278/.344?

 

I've seen posts around here that say if Estrada is still with this team next year, that Doug Melvin would have failed in the offseason. After looking at that free agent list, I just don't get how DM would have failed. Estrada's better than most of the guys on that list, no matter how annoying his approach at the plate is. If it's true that Estrada's been battling a hamstring injury all year, I bring him back next year to see what he can do when he's healthy and in a contract year, then let him walk after next season.

[dlk9s]

Barrett although bad defensively is much better offensively than Estrada.

No, he's not. They have the same career OBP. Estrada has a better BA by 15 points (which means he walks less). Barrett's SLG is better, which appears to be because he has slightly better HR numbers and has a bit more speed, so he's actually legged out some triples. So no, Barrett is not much better offensively than Estrada.

 

[brettac1]

Barrett had an .885 OPS in 2006. He had three very good years in a row, whereas Estrada had good year/bad year/decent year. His numbers are pulled down by a few crappy years in Montreal, but from 2004-2006 he was one of the best offensive catchers in the league.

[1992casey]

Jeez, where were all you guys who dislike Estrada in February when I started a "Is Estrada Really an Upgrade?" thread. Man did I get blasted. I don't think his offense is much of a surprise. Maybe a little lower BA and OBP than expected, but not to much. He came over with big questions about his defense. I believe that the pitchers in Arizon were not to fond of him. He is about what I expected, except for the pitches in the dirt. Man does he suck at that. At least Moeller could block pitches in the dirt.

Johnny has kept the team from relying on Rivera, or using a Chad Moeller--who sucks both offensively and defensively, or (god forbid) having to call up a Julio Mosquera. That's worth quite a bit.

 

I agree that his offense is about what we could reasonably expect or a bit below. I didn't anticipate being so annoyed by his first-ball hitting, though. I didn't expect particularly good defense, but I didn't expect his defense to be as bad as we've seen. Johnny has been known to comment that he works to be known as a defensive catcher. I'd hate to see the result if he didn't 'work' at his defense.

[logan82]

Johnny has kept the team from relying on Rivera, or using a Chad Moeller--who sucks both offensively and defensively, or (god forbid) having to call up a Julio Mosquera. That's worth quite a bit.

 

I agree that his offense is about what we could reasonably expect or a bit below. I didn't anticipate being so annoyed by his first-ball hitting, though. I didn't expect particularly good defense, but I didn't expect his defense to be as bad as we've seen. Johnny has been known to comment that he works to be known as a defensive catcher. I'd hate to see the result if he didn't 'work' at his defense.

 

I pretty much said the only upgrade with Estrada would be the fact that Miller would be a pretty good backup and we wouldn't suffer much offensivley every third day when our backup was in. I didn't however believe that Estrada would put up much better numbers in 2007 than Miller did in 2006.

[1992casey]

Because of the good commentary in this merged thread, I've added it to the Designated Threads List. This topic is bound to come up again soon, and this thread should be good for future use.

[craigharmann]

Estrada has knee, elbow surgery

 

Interesting that Estrada is having elbow surgery. Can't make him any worse, can it?

[RU Rah Rah]

Elbow and knee surgery. Maybe there's a two-for-one special happening.

[craigharmann]

After the season he had throwing the ball, I wonder if DM made him have the surgery whether he needed it or not! At least to explain why he threw out 2 people all year! (Or at least it seemed like 2 people)

[bjkrautk]

Bone spurs in his throwing arm couldn't possibly limit his effectiveness throwing out baserunners.

[sbrylski]

Maybe they are tightening his tendons so he'll throw like Henry Rowengartner...

 

(ugh, a Cubs reference...)

[Cracked Bat Collector]

Simple, trade for Jeff Clement! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

Interesting to hear about the bone spurs in his elbow - 2008 = JE's second chance.

[JohnBriggs12]

Torrealba is the one free agent that would interest me.

 

Rivera's as good as most of the backups on that FA list with more power than most. He gets ripped for his arm strength but it's better than Estrada's was this year and he's a more athletic receiver too. Rivera's offense is comparable to David Ross.

 

If Rottino were to make the 25 man roster, they could conceivably go without a starting quality catcher because they could then PH without burning their last catcher.

[sbrylski]

Yorvit hit .212 with a .618 OPS away from Coors this year. Please pass.

[Blazer25]

For those folks who insist his defense is costing the team, you're going to need to come up with something other than no numbers and emotional overreaction.

How's this?

 

Estrada

 

5 PB's

6 Errors

11 for 73 CS for a 15% Throw out rate

.993 fielding %

 

85% of base runners that made it to 1st or 2b made it safely to the next base when Estrada was behind the plate. That is absolutely unacceptable.

 

Compared to Miller

1 PB

1 E

12 for 24 CS for 50% Throw out rate

.997 FLD%

 

Al, If you can't see how those defensive numbers hurt the team you're not looking.

 

Now I agree that he's average offensively but that does not excuse the lack of production on defense. Defense is the #1 job of a catcher for 99% of the big league scouting departments. Johnny is not getting it done.

 

Mike Rivera is not the answer either. Nor is Rottino. But we need to improve our overall team defense. C would be a good place to start.

 

 

Edit: Looks like Estrada played through some elbow issues. Hopefully that was the main reason for his dismal defense this year.

[uecker9]

Where did the Brewers rank as far as OBP against ?

[Invader3K]

I think basically what it boils down to, is what kind of catcher would you rather have starting for the Brewers, Johnny Estrada, or Chad Moeller? I just don't see any decent hitting, great defensive catchers out there for the Brewers to acquire right now.

[Fatter than Joey]

I think you are assuming it's based solely on those 10 ab's.

 

Someone should check his ass for bone spurs as well -- they might find 50 lbs. of them there as well.