Catching situation for 2008 (Merged: "Maybe we'll have a better catcher next year!")

[RightFieldCoder]

We have one that is average and I can deal with that

 

He is average in offense (for a catcher), but when you are also below average on defense and 10 feet below the ground in baserunning it is something that needs to be upgraded.

[razzzorsharp]

Give me some suggestions that we can do. Should we go with an unproven career minor leaguer? Should we go buy Posada or another catcher who we can't afford? I think if we go into next season with Estrada as out catcher, at least we know what we are getting. Also, I would call Estrada better than average in terms of hitting for catchers.

[PeaveyFury]

Rivera had a horrible year at AAA, and is only marginally better defensively than Estrada. I have no problem going with him as the backup if Miller retires, though.

[dadofandrew]

Rivera was available to any team in MLB for nothing in late March this year, and there were no takers. I believe that is an accurate portrayal of his value. He then went down to Nashville and failed to get on base 30% of the time. He is probably a very capable reserve, but so are 30 others in MLB and 30 others in AAA.

 

To compare a career AAA vet to Estrada? Johnny has some warts, but next year, he'll be a starting catcher, and Rivera will not. I'm not even sure how you can a comparison with a straight face.

 

The really sad thing is Estrada has been playing for several months now with a bad hamstring (though many insisted this was not the case ages ago), and it is doubtful it's getting any better. For sucking it up and giving his all at less than 100%, he is constantly criticized for...being a slow runner?

 

Carry on.

[Brian the Automator]

Yeah, I think if the Brewers went with Rivera as the starter, his career numbers would catch up with him and we'd all be thoroughly disappointed. He's a nice guy to have as a backup because he's got pop in his bat, but anything else would be just based off these small September sample-sizes.

[colbyjack]

Estrada's lack of on-base skills and his defensive liabilities have become more and more apparent as the season has wore on. While I agree catchers are hard to come by, particularly ones that can hit, Estrada has reminded me this year that it is much better, IMO of course, to have a very good defensive catcher that can't hit vs. one that can kind of hit but can't throw anyone out (remember Brian Harper?). It's been a track meet on the basepaths recently, and I can't believe he opened the season batting 5th.

 

However, I don't know what the other options are, and Estrada seems to have an every-other-year thing going for him, which could mean he's due for a bigger 2008 than this past year, especially since I think he's a FA after next season.

 

I agree that Rivera could be a sound backup, but I'm kind of hoping Damian Miller sticks around the serve that role.

[RockCoCougars]

Seriously, it won't be hard to replace Estrada. If not with Rivera, with some guy that will be available much more cheaply. I think back to two guys, Eddie Perez and Joe Oliver. Both were considered "washed up", and came to the Brewers very cheap. In my opinion, both of these guys played much better for the team than Estrada has. I'd have absolutely no problem with a good field no stick type guy because I don't think much of Estrada's skills at the plate anyway. He's hit a "soft" 270 this year, if that's possible. For heaven's sake, Jesse Levis or Paul Bako would get more than 2 rbi's in a month!

[pebadger]

Anyone care to make up a list of affordable and 2008-available catchers? And what is ther Brewers outstanding financial commitment to Estrada?

 

Rivera is like the back-up QB who makes some nice plays in imited duty when the fans are really down on the starter.

[colbyjack]

This site has a pretty good list of players that will be free agents this offseason, you can sort by position, team, etc.

 

http://www.mlb4u.com/freeagency.php?field=position

 

Jason LaRue is a guy I have always liked for some reason, but he's getting older and his offensive skills seem to be on the decline, so he's probably not the greatest option. Not a very encouraging list of names, unless you're willing to get involved in trying to find a way to land someone like Posada or even Pudge, which doesn't seem likely.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Ramon Castro, Michael Barrett, and Javier Valentin would all be upgrades over Estrada in some way. Barrett although bad defensively is much better offensively than Estrada. If Castro didnt have personal baggage from years ago would be a good choice as well.

[brewers19]

For sucking it up and giving his all at less than 100%, he is constantly criticized for...being a slow runner?

 

He's been probably been more heavily criticized here for his utter lack of plate patience. Of the 521 players in the majors who have amassed 50 or more plate appearances this season (that's how low you have to go to find anyone who comes close to him), Estrada is dead last - tied with Josh Fogg - in pitches per plate appearance with an average of 2.95. Even Ben Sheets (3.29) blows him out of the water.

[davego]

Al is right on this one. Brian posted the other day that we have to have viable options other then "not Johnny".

 

After Chad Moeller, Paul Bako and the like...our catching isn't that bad.

 

I'd be for having 3, so long as one can hit lefthanded and then hope Ned plays some matchups and also uses a PR sometimes. That means we can't carry 13 or 14 pitchers...

[TooLiveBrew]

The other problem with our catchers is Yost. Yost will never use 2 catchers in one day. It would be nice to have the ability to pinch-run our C's or defensively replace them in some situations.

 

No offense intended, but did you miss the game yesterday?

[sheethead]

razzzorsharp[/b]]Give me some suggestions that we can do. Should we go with an unproven career minor leaguer? Should we go buy Posada or another catcher who we can't afford? I think if we go into next season with Estrada as out catcher, at least we know what we are getting. Also, I would call Estrada better than average in terms of hitting for catchers.

 

We sure do know what we're getting, a terrible MLB catcher. Estrada was exposed last night for what he is, a terrible defensive cather. I would be embarrased if I got paid millions to play in the MLB and performed the way Carne has this year. Right now, there is no question in my mind Rivera is the best catching option on the roster. As for next year, something has to be done about the position. Deciding what that something is isn't what I get paid to do, nor am i privy to any inside information that would allow any of my suggestions be sustainable. Therefore I make no suggestions. IMO Rivera would be an upgrade to Carne. He seems to be into the game at the MLB level and at least tries all the time. The same thing cannot be said of Estrada. His bat would be the same, his running would be better, defense would be better, and i would say his clubhouse personality would most certainly be better. With that said, if I were to bet today who would be the starting catcher next year, I would go with Carne Estrada simply because we traded Doug Davis for him. The only bad trade Melvin has made in his tenure (although I admit it looked good at the time to me).

[razzzorsharp]

I suppose Sheethead that you watched the game? Maybe, just maybe, Sheets is a little at fault because of his slow delivery. I would say most of those runner a Molina, pick one, could not have thrown out.

[DHarris34Phan]

This is a perfect example of people looking for something to complain about.

 

Estrada is what he is, an average MLB catcher. If Rivera did in Milwaukee what he did in Nashville this year, he would be getting it far worse than Estrada.

 

If someone can name me 5 realisitic replacements for the Brewers next year, than you have a valid complaint. There just aren't that many catching options out there, and to have an average catcher is ok IMO, whereas most of the MLB has catchers hitting .225 with maybe a little defensive upgrade.

[JohnBriggs12]

Rivera's "horrible" 2007, now includes 21 HR in under 400 AB's between AAA and the majors. In 2005 and 2006 he posted OPS's over .800. Yeah his arm isn't that strong but his caught stealing rate 8 of 47 in 06 is better than Estrada's 11 of 81 this year and he's a better receiver. Besides he can also play 1st, and even a little 3B (which he did at Nashville this year) in a pinch.

 

Next year provided Miller's not back they should keep both Rivera and Rottino. That way, they can pinch run for Estrada all season late in games.

 

"If Rivera did in Milwaukee what he did in Nashville, he would be getting it worse than Estrada".

 

He would? He had 61 RBI at Nashville in 349 AB's to Estrada's 48 in 422 AB's in Milwaukee. That's not counting the 3 he has as a Brewer for a total of 64.

[Fatter than Joey]

No offense intended, but did you miss the game yesterday?

 

Nope I watched it -- I am not sure what you are getting at -- I realize Estrada got PR for yesterday -- however yesterday was in Sep. when we have 12 catchers on our roster -- I am speaking to Apr-Aug., when Yost almost NEVER PHs or PRs for the Cs. You can have a defensive liability on your roster, esp. if you are willing to replace them at some point in the game.

 

Estrada is what he is, an average MLB catcher.

 

Estrada is below average. He is among the worst defensively, and at the very best average as a hitter. Overall he is clearly below average/bad.

 

If Rivera did in Milwaukee what he did in Nashville this year, he would be getting it far worse than Estrada.

 

I agree Rivera is not a suitable starting replacement.

 

If someone can name me 5 realisitic replacements for the Brewers next year, than you have a valid complaint.

 

How does naming 5 replacements change Estrada's sucktitude. It doesn't.

 

most of the MLB has catchers hitting .225 with maybe a little defensive upgrade.

 

You are understating what Estrada's defense is costing this team.

 

Maybe, just maybe, Sheets is a little at fault because of his slow delivery.

 

This is fair, but -- Estrada made bad throws.

[IslandsAC]

Is the difference between two catchers defensively really worth getting this worked up about? Sure it is painful to watch (wow, is it painful), but would the Reds have scored any fewer runs yesterday without the stolen bases? And for that matter, would any of those bases not have been stolen with any other catcher out there, considering how slowly Sheets comes to the plate. Estrada is simply easier to throw under the bus than Sheets.

 

Rant aside, Rivera would be a great backup for next year in the case that one of the current Brewers catchers isn't with the club.

[TooLiveBrew]

but d-ha-phan, Estrada is only "average" in terms of batting. Defensively he's well below average at best. C is the one position, imho, where the D outweighs the O. Basically unless you're getting McCann or Martin offensive production, the D is more important. Coincidentally, both those guys are also solid defenders.

 

Of the 19 NL C with at least 200 TPA, Estrada is 9th in OPS. Probably the definition of "average." Although I realize that the pitcher affects SB rates, the only catchers in MLB that even come close to Estrada's pathetic SB/CS ratio (7.36 (for the CS rate - 15.7%)) are the other bottom-feeding butchers. Plus don't forget what a horrible job he does blocking pitches. His defense is so bad, and at such an important defensive position, that it all but cancels out what little value he brings at the plate.

 

You want 5 better options? Ronny Paulino (near identical OPS, much better defense), Bengie Molina, Carlos Ruiz (Phi.), John Buck (KC), Greg Zaun (Tor.), Chris Snyder (the reason Estrada was dumped), Mike Napoli (LAA), Michael Barrett (also poor defensively, but better offensively). That's 8, and I tried to be fair in both drawing the line at a minimum of 225 TPA, and omitting guys that would pretty obviously be not available.

 

EDIT: I realize Estrada got PR for yesterday -- however yesterday was in Sep. when we have 12 catchers on our roster -- I am speaking to Apr-Aug., when Yost almost NEVER PHs or PRs for the Cs.

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

[PeaveyFury]

He would? He had 61 RBI at Nashville in 349 AB's to Estrada's 48 in 422 AB's in Milwaukee. That's not counting the 3 he has as a Brewer for a total of 64.

That'd be great if HR's and RBI were the only stats that count in baseball. Unfortunately for Rivera, that's not the case, as he managed to hit .215 with a .270 OBP and .421 slugging percentage at A LEVEL LOWER THAN ESTRADA. That is horrible, no quotation marks needed around it.

[dadofandrew]

Miller and Estrada's cERA's are all but identical, almost exactly what you would expect from two veteran backstops, who probably discuss how they plan to work each hitter during the series preview twice a week.

 

For those folks who insist his defense is costing the team, you're going to need to come up with something other than no numbers and emotional overreaction.

 

And I'm sorry, when did RBI's once again become relevant...this isn't 1977. Runners on base have a direct correlation to runners driven in. They mean nothing, as do just about all counting stats.

[homer]

Anyone have an MLE for Rivera this year? I'd be curious how it stacks up vs. Estrada's numbers. Comparing AAA numbers directly to MLB numbers is an exercise in futility.

[dadofandrew]

It's pointless, but while I do not know MLE's, I do know Estrada hit the best pitchers in the world better than Mike hit AAA fellas:

 

Estrada--.282/.302./405, 707

Rivera---.215/.270/.421, 691

 

There's a reason why I find the entire discussion extremely foolhardy, and the above is it.

[brettac1]

Wow, I can't stand Estrada, but Rivera would be way worse. I think it's cool that he's managed to pop a few dingers the last couple Septembers, but he's not an everyday big leaguer (and probably not more than a third catcher that you stash in AAA).