Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost

[brewerphandog]

Ned Yost has a significant number of highly admirable qualities, he works well with others, he leads by example, he has strong character, he is loyal, he is intelligent, and he is thoughtful. He makes decisions on a nightly basis that I concur with and support, he does make his share of blunders, that is certain. I think frankly that Ned Yost is a better man than manager. I feel like he is someone who I and others could emulate in our own lives, yet he is also someone who at this point isn't winning baseball games.

 

I find it difficult to distinguish between a manager and his team not winning games and a quality man. For example, I had a chance to spend some time with Mike Sherman the man, he is a tremendous person. He has tremendous values, wit, charm, intellect, faith...he is someone whom I would emulate, but like any figure he has flaws his flaws as small as they were led to his downfall...with Mike, and Ned I believe it all comes down to judgement. They get paid to make great decisions, and often times they do, but if they don't work out, it ultimately rests with them. Hindsight is to clear in these cases. Cases in point: Ned allowing Bush to go out on Sunday. I would have, I thought it was the right move...backfires; tonight with Supp, great call hard to argue, but it ultimately didn't work. Ned has a seasons worth of judgements that we can look at after the fact and say...poor choice, many of them are clear as they happen, not going with the matchups, letting loyalty get in the way, etc...

 

So as with Mike Sherman, we have to look at the bottom line. Excellent men, men capable of great things, but at this point they are not making decisions that either produce or inspire success. This team has enough talent to contend and be very successful, this team is close to excellence, but ultimately the decisions that Ned is making that are not working are his own, and he would be the first to tell you that. He is a man, men makes decisions and they have to be accountable for their results. He chose to bring Linebrink in, Scott hasn't pitched well, he allowed him to try and work through it and as he did versus Cincy he failed. Ned had options, he chose the wrong one. I was hoping he went with Brink, but in the end it didn't work, and while I can sit on my couch and wonder what does this guy and team have to do to catch a break? I am not the manager and I can agree with his calls all day, but when they don't work and the team is floundering this badly--he needs to go.

 

Losing is a culture and for whatever reason, Ned hasn't been able to perpetuate a culture that encourages success on the road. I personally think baseball is a game of ebbs and flows and you can't get too high or low, but clearly this team lacks energy, spunk, swagger, whatever...on the road and he does nothing to fill any emotional void on the dugout. His David Carradine guru look doesn't inspire, it doesn't rally, and it is at this point an old act. There is something to be said for a bit of vinegar now and again, a bit of fire, getting in someone's face and since the Graffy/Estrada incident he has sat on the dugout steps like a constipated Yoda, and his teams demeanor reflects that. Nowhere do you see a look of disgust, a thrown bat, a Bo Jackson broken bat, you just see Ryan Braun, Corey Hart, and Ricky Weeks (they have the look down cold) walk back to the dugout like one of the kids going to the meat grinder in that Pink Floyd video, expressionless and stoic. I realize this isn't football, but this approach simply isn't working.

 

In short! He goes.

[Brian the Automator]

The Brewers are below .500, 2 games below the threshhold I've set internally for my decision on whether the Brewers should fire Ned or not. It's not looking good, Ned.

 

If you know how to cheat, start doing it now.

[hart attack 2006]

Ned Yost could very likely get the axe, but it will be with his pitching staff carrying him to the guillotine. Given the performance of his pitching staff, many of his "bad" decisions (or non-decisions) are simply loose-loose situations. These pitching decisions he has to make are similar to asking a inmate on death row how he want's to be executed. Yost probably isn't one of the best managers in the game, but given this staff, would Cox, Torre, LaRussa, ect look any better?

[iluvlamp]

Ned Yost is a poo-poo pants. I don't like him and never have. Over the course of this season I do see that players have let him down. Hell, they have let themselves down. Ned has to go. His call tonight to pull Soup after letting him hit was Garbage. We will see I suppose but his team is a big steaming pile.

[bklynbrewcrew]

The time to go has long passed. Ned shouldnt even be allowed to finish the season.

[SoCalBrewfan]

No Garner, please...I just imagine him doing to Gallardo and Parra what he did for Cal Eldred.

 

At this point it's got to be a matter of when and not whether for Yost. I've never hated Yost like some have, but I've always disliked his tactics, particularly with respect to the pitching staff. I've never liked his delight for the hot hand when constructing a lineup. But I could overlook some of that while I felt that he was effective in keeping the team motivated and upbeat.

 

Now I am seriously afraid that he's done damage to some of the valuable talent we have. I might be wrong here, but I feel like he's alienating Hall, and perhaps Weeks. Not sure if anyone else sees things that way, but I gotta wonder....

[SoCalBrewfan]

His call tonight to pull Soup after letting him hit was Garbage.

Yeah, that was just weird. Either you think Suppan has it, and you let him pitch, or you pinch hit and go for the big inning. Ned's solution is a half-ackward indecisive response that is neither fish nor fowl.

[TooLiveBrew]

Ok, so similar situation to Bush in SF, except not. Soup wasn't looking nearly as fatigued as Bush, and Soup nicely executed the bunt. Ok - stickin' with your guy, fine with it - esp. at roughly 80 pitches (even though Floyd & Jones, two Jenkins clones, are due up the following inning). But then, he doesn't stick with Jeff, after the beaning. It wasn't like that was a sign of deteriorating control at that point, imho Soup just lost the handle on that pitch. That could've happened in the 2d inning.

 

So, ok, make the move to the pen, you've got Shouse & Linebrink getting loose, and Jones is coming up soon, so you go get the lefty that also has success v. RH-- no, wait, you go with the RHP. Why? Playing a hunch? Why Shouse was not in to face at least Jones (when Brian had had plenty of time to get loose) will never - ever - be something I can understand. This loss makes me feel like my puppy just ran over itself. What does Ned do in place of thinking rationally? I will never know, and perhaps that's for the best.

[Ennder]

We are now discussing breaking the record for most big leads blown in a season while at the same time being right around the record pace for least come from behind wins. That to me says something about the manager, its just time for a change. This team simply gives up on games around the 5th or 6th inning and has for over half a season now.

[don1481]

Believe it or not, I have no issue tonight with Ned keeping in Suppan to start the seventh and pulling him as soon as a runner got on. With 78 pitches going into the seventh, Ned was doing the right thing by at least putting him in at first.

 

This situation does not compare exactly with the Bush situation because Ned-tastic left Bush in after putting a runner on and thus getting himself into trouble.

 

Although... as The Prince of Darkness pointed out in his blog entry tonight on JSOnline, Ned needs to stop relying so heavily on a "worn-out" pitcher, otherwise leads will continue to be blown.

 

But... that brings up the question: Outside of Shouse, who really has been all that effective of late from the pen? Can Ned really do anything about it when his relievers are just plain not getting the job done?

 

EDIT: I still think Ned has to go based on his whole body of work from this season, but I'm almost to the point of wondering if anyone can win with the present state of the pitching staff.

[TooLiveBrew]

Right, but in this case, Shouse was the right guy to bring in, not Linebrink. This team has suffered enough from Ned's labels - 'Linebrink is the 7th inning guy', etc. I agree mightily that this situation is different from Bush - I said that, it's just the eerie coincidence of having the chance to pinch-hit - in this case, I agree with the bunt & stick with Soup. But stick with him then! He lost the handle on one pitch, not 'he couldn't find the zone anymore' - and if you yank him, play your matchups! http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/mad.gif

[Ennder]

Soup wasn't looking nearly as fatigued as Bush

 

Thats not actually true, Bush had given up one hard hit ball, just one. He had 2 groundball outs, a great pitch hit down the line by durham, a flyball out and a hard hit double the inning before. There was nothing wrong with leaving Bush in at all.

 

Yost still is supposed to be a good manager because he gets 'the best' out of his players and he hasn't really done that since 2005. His in game management is average at best.

[TooLiveBrew]

I disagree, Ennder, to re-hash an old exchange we've already had. There's more to a pitcher than how hard the ball is hit or what the result of the contact is. When a pitcher's control has steadily deteriorated, like it had with Bush, it's time to get a better matchup out there. When it's one pitch on which he lost the handle, it's time to say, ok, his control's still fine.

[don1481]

Right, but in this case, Shouse was the right guy to bring in, not Linebrink. This team has suffered enough from Ned's labels - 'Linebrink is the 7th inning guy', etc. I agree mightily that this situation is different from Bush - I said that, it's just the eerie coincidence of having the chance to pinch-hit - in this case, I agree with the bunt & stick with Soup. But stick with him then! He lost the handle on one pitch, not 'he couldn't find the zone anymore' - and if you yank him, play your matchups! http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/mad.gif

Oh, I completely agree that Ned should have brought in Shouse; the matchup numbers say as such. However, "sticking with him" and keeping him in after hitting Floyd could have been disastrous, especially given Emmett Prosser's blog on JSOnline about how opponents are hitting close to .450 against Soup from pitches 76-90. Keeping Soup on a tight leash after bringing him out for the 7th allowed the Brewers to - in theory - still have an available pinch hitter in case one would be necessary later on... plus gave the Brewers the chance to get another inning out of a starter.

 

Bush should have been on the same sort of tight leash in an effort to try and get another inning out of him.

 

The point of all of this? To add onto what Ennder's saying, Ned's in-game management is consistently inconsistent at best and downright ignorant at worst. That's why Ned needs to go.

[TooLiveBrew]

However, "sticking with him" and keeping him in after hitting Floyd could have been disastrous, especially given Emmett Prosser's blog on JSOnline about how opponents are hitting close to .450 against Soup from pitches 76-90. Keeping Soup on a tight leash after bringing him out for the 7th allowed the Brewers to - in theory - still have an available pinch hitter in case one would be necessary later on... plus gave the Brewers the chance to get another inning out of a starter.

 

...

 

The point of all of this? To add onto what Ennder's saying, Ned's in-game management is consistently inconsistent at best and downright ignorant at worst. That's why Ned needs to go.

I can admit that pulling Soup after the beaning was correct. But as I said, play the matchups then - for God's sake!

And I completely agree with the categorization of the manager. And the final verdict.

 

[don1481]

play the matchups then - for God's sake!

 

Glad to see we're in agreement about what should have been done here... hopefully Ned's short leash tonight will be a sign of him lear... oh wait - this is Ned we're talking about. He'll leave Sheets in tomorrow for 140 pitches and another double blisterhttp://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/mad.gif

 

If he does that... MA better fire him on the spot. I don't care if it's mid-game... running your "ace" into the ground is too Dusty Baker-esque for me.

[BowMeHunter]

How can anybody agree it was the right time to pull Soup? Rant one

 

The Bucks canned a dud in, Stotts, near the end of the season. Why, because he was not the right coach for the team.. Ned, has clearly shown us all, in a not so small sample size, that he doesn't connect with his team either.

 

 

 

The man should have been canned last year. Now we continue to debate, Yost.

[True CryM]

This shouldn't even be a debate anymore. Yost is joke. Another season, another collapse, and this guy continues to manage.

[Bruce Ciskie]

Right, but in this case, Shouse was the right guy to bring in, not Linebrink. This team has suffered enough from Ned's labels - 'Linebrink is the 7th inning guy', etc. I agree mightily that this situation is different from Bush - I said that, it's just the eerie coincidence of having the chance to pinch-hit - in this case, I agree with the bunt & stick with Soup. But stick with him then! He lost the handle on one pitch, not 'he couldn't find the zone anymore' - and if you yank him, play your matchups! http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/mad.gif

Oh, I completely agree that Ned should have brought in Shouse; the matchup numbers say as such. However, "sticking with him" and keeping him in after hitting Floyd could have been disastrous, especially given Emmett Prosser's blog on JSOnline about how opponents are hitting close to .450 against Soup from pitches 76-90. Keeping Soup on a tight leash after bringing him out for the 7th allowed the Brewers to - in theory - still have an available pinch hitter in case one would be necessary later on... plus gave the Brewers the chance to get another inning out of a starter.

 

Bush should have been on the same sort of tight leash in an effort to try and get another inning out of him.

 

The point of all of this? To add onto what Ennder's saying, Ned's in-game management is consistently inconsistent at best and downright ignorant at worst. That's why Ned needs to go.

 

I agree on all counts except the "saving a pinch-hitter" thing. There's a runner on first, one out, and the top of the order is due up next. If that doesn't scream "PINCH HIT THE SHORT-LEASHED PITCHER" for a shot at insurance runs, what does? Why save a pinch-hitter for extra innings when you have a chance to avoid extra innings by hanging a crooked number now?

[RU Rah Rah]

Right now, he's pretty much snakebitten, in terms of decision-making. I think he pulled the trigger at the right time (in yanking Soup when he did) but somehow managed to fire the wrong bullet (by putting in Linebrink rather than Shouse).

 

I really don't think it's a matter of "if" the axe falls. It's more a matter of "when." I have always thought that he would make it at least the end of the season, but now I'm not so sure.

[twobrewers]

What would Yost have to do to get fired THIS season yet?

 

I doubt firing him would make much of a difference - we aren't going to magically become a good team. But at some point, you acknowledge the fact that he isn't going to be with the team next year. If the players ever start to think he is toast - you might as well fire him right away and let someone else coach in the interam, as a coach about to get fired would COMPLETELY lose the clubhouse.

 

If we get swept in Chicago - and then swept at home by the Pirate....would that be enough to end the Yost era? Or do you think he will manage out the year come hell or high water? (I think once we are mathmatically eliminated - there is no point in keeping him around)

 

On a side note - I don't know why, but I hate Dale Svuem.

[Bruce Ciskie]

What would Yost have to do to get fired THIS season yet?

At this point, I don't know that he can get fired, unless something extreme like what you laid out happens. What's the point, unless there's someone in the organization that you want to audition for the job?

[Invader3K]

The prospect of Nick Leyva managing this team for the remainder of the season doesn't really excite me.

 

I do think if the Brewers lose this series or worse, get swept, that should be pretty much it for Ned. I don't think he'll get canned before the end of the season, as there's really not much point to changing managers now.

[mark brouhard is number on]

there is no way suppan should have been pulled after hitting the batter to start the seventh. he had like 80 pitches and was pitching really well. i think the neighbors probably think i'm crazy for yelling so much about that. what a ridiculous managing job that was last night. i was in ned's corner up until the last month, now i believe the sooner he goes the better. not sure if i'll watch this crappy team till next year

[JohnBriggs12]

Suppan should have been pinch hit for in the top of the inning if Yost had it in his mind he would pull him after one guy got on in the bottom of the inning. Sure, he sacrificed, but giving up outs late in games with the wind blowing out in Wrigley is asking for trouble.

 

Suppan came to bat in the 7th with a runner on and one out. Stick Dillon up there and force Piniella's hand for once. Yost never puts the onus on the other manager. He always lets the other guy force his hand.

 

He then could have once again forced Piniella's hand by bringing in the one guy who has been steady throughout the meltdown, Shouse to face Floyd leading off in the 7th (and two batters later, Jones). Now Piniella is in a pickle. Does he pull his lefthanded bats for Murton and Monroe there or let his lefties face Shouse. Frankly, I'd much rather have Murton and Monroe in the game and Floyd and Jones out of it if I'm Ned Yost.

 

Yost is simply in over his head. It's nothing new. He's done this stuff for 5 years but only this year are people paying attention.

 

Good managers never let thoughts like "we made a deal to get Linebrink to be our 7th inning guy so that's what he is", interfere with managing a particular game with it's particular set of circumstances. But Yost does this all the time. He doesn't stay focused on the situations at hand but is focused on roles he's defined for players ahead of time. Notice that Ned's solution when things go wrong is to come out and say that he's changing a guy's role. Baseball doesn't work that way, Ned. Sometimes, the situations dictate the role, not the other way around.