Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost

[trwi7]

I've stayed out of this thread the whole time (at least I think I have, there might have been a drunk post or two) but you guys have seen those AFLAC commercials with the goat chewing on the paper, right? Well I for one am going to have to agree with the goat and what he said....Nay, Nay, Nay.

[jlau20]

We had a family gathering today, and my uncle said that he heard from a Brewers insider that if the Brewers got swept in San Fran, Yost would get canned, and Mark A would make a major move. He said that he doesn't know for sure if it's true but told me that he heard it from a very reliable source.

This would explain Yost's incredibly distant & uncharacteristic demeanor today in the post-game "interview." I obviously don't know how true or untrue this rumor is, and I'll admit to speculation, but man - it looked today after the game like Ned knew something even worse that none of us did.

 

I'm glad I was the only one who thought so. He just seemed empty or something. Not even the usually somewhat snotty reply to the reporters poking him with questions meant to irritate him. He really just seemed lost, like others have said. I thought he was going to cry or something. No matter what happens, it's going to be an interesting 32 games.

[jlau20]

Maybe they need to bring back that commercial from last year...you know, the 'we've got fighters, we've got gamers...' yada yada yada. Maybe not. I'm tired.

[don1481]

But since he gave up a 2 run HR people think it proves that it was dumb to leave him in. That simply is not true, regardless of whether or not you wanted him out after the 6th the fact that you point at the results and say it was wrong is using hindsight. At least 60% of the time that ends up being an out, instead this time its a HR, the fact he gave up a HR seems to vindicate people when it really shouldn't.

Ennder, note that I was not at all talking about Bush's situation yesterday when I was talking about our questioning Ned's decision-making. But I'll address it anyways - I agree completely with TLB on this point: It was obvious when Bush went out there in the 6th, he wasn't as effective as before; while pitch counts can and do give some insight as to when a pitcher's effectiveness can start to drop off, it's not the only indicator, either.

 

In real time, we've all agreed with a number of Ned's decisions that ultimately backfired. We don't fault him for those, because he did what what he was supposed to do. Unfortunately, more often than not, Ned makes the wrong decision - with a number of us screaming about it in the chat - and it blows up in his face.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I think some guys, regardless of pitch count, are 6 inning pitchers. I know some don't like that, and think these guys should be "gamers" like the olden days, but that's simply not the way pitchers are conditioned anymore. They're conditioned to go every 5 days, 6 innings, more often than not.

 

When I heard the pitch count was only 64 pitches through 6, I STILL wanted to see Bush get yanked, for several reasons. Day off today, for one thing, so you can burn 3 relievers no problem. Bush almost always hits that wall in the 6th or 7th, and there it was once again.

[milwaukeesportsfan]

Nay, a most resounding Nay. If not today, soon. Preferably today, however.

[1992casey]

I'm with Ennder in that I think many, many complaints about Ned are unfounded. Having said that, I'm moving very much into the 'nay' camp.

[Fatter than Joey]

I'm with Ennder in that I think many, many complaints about Ned are unfounded.

 

Maybe -- It can be hard to tangibly ascertain what a manager has done good or bad.

 

The flip side to your coin, is that I feel that most of the praise of Ned is as equally unfounded.

 

As I said before, I tend to look more on "what has Ned done to deserve his position" rather than "what has Ned done to deserve to be fired"

[Ennder]

I'm with Ennder in that I think many, many complaints about Ned are unfounded.

 

Maybe -- It can be hard to tangibly ascertain what a manager has done good or bad.

 

The flip side to your coin, is that I feel that most of the praise of Ned is as equally unfounded.

 

As I said before, I tend to look more on "what has Ned done to deserve his position" rather than "what has Ned done to deserve to be fired"

I don't know that I've seen anyone praise Ned, just defend him. Thats probably not a good thing and is why I have moved to the Nay side of things.

[Fatter than Joey]

I don't know that I've seen anyone praise Ned, just defend him.

 

You are probably correct that "defend" is a better word than "praise" -- I am speaking to the more hand-waving things like "Ned runs a good clubhouse", "The players love playing for him", "Ned is right for this team", rather than people defending his in-game strategy decisions.

[lukevan]

I don't think anyone is really on Yost's "side" here. We're all pretty upset about the way things are going. I just think people are defending his role; I don't think another manager is going to all of a sudden spark the team to play great. Making a change in the offseason could prove to be fruitful, giving another manager time in Spring Training to make some adjustments, but I don't think bringing another manager in for the last 32 is going to be the difference.

 

I'm leaning towards Nay, just because Yost has had his shot this season and the team hasn't been able to sustain their success. No players have really come to the "defense" of Yost really at any time that I can remember. However I'm not convinced that another manager is going to "fix" anything that is going wrong. I can just envision having a great record next season and people hailing the new manager as a savior over attributing it to young players' progression or a better starting rotation.

[SeriesFinale]

If he makes the playoffs, Yay...if they finish with a losing record, Nay (presuming maybe too hopefully that the NL Central doesn't produce a losing divisional winner)

 

The real question is what happens if they don't make the playoffs and finish with 82 or 83 wins. While it's a regression from May, it's still progress from last season. All the same, it's been five years and just being a little bit better than .500 doesn't really salve missing the playoffs after that start or the major second-half issues we've seen the last couple years from Ned's teams.

 

I'm just not convinced that Ned will be the guy, which is sad because I was really hoping a golden-era guy would be the one to bring the Crew back to the top.

[RU Rah Rah]

What's interesting to me about the conversation is that the argument is becoming "Ned should be fired" v. "Ned hasn't quite screwed up badly enough to merit firing -- yet." I don't really hear anyone coming out and saying affirmatively that Ned is a good manager, or that we're somehow lucky to have him at the helm.

 

I think enough of the franchise to argue that it deserves a quality manager, and not someone who maybe hasn't quite yet stumbled as badly as is possible.

[strawbossisevil]

He is an average manager in my opinion. He definitely isn't top notch, but he is average when it comes to in game decisions (don't believe me, watch some games other than the Brewers and see how often the managers make similar "mistakes"), and above average in the clubhouse. Firing him could result in two possibilities though, 1) a better manager or 2) a worse manager. Some of you seem to think that the second possibility couldn't happen. That replacing him would automatically make our managerial position better.

 

I would be willing to take the managerial gamble if Ned doesn't lead this team to the playoffs this season. So I still think it's best to just wait and see what happens in the final 30 or so games, before making this decision. For all that we know, the team could catch fire in the last month (with Sheets returning) and run away with a playoff spot, which would make all of this site's nay sayers look a bit foolish.

 

The time for Ned to put up or shut up is coming though.

 

FTJ, there is no one on this site that thinks Ned is a top notch manager. He isn't. He is very average. It seems when he manages by the book, he gets criticized for being closed minded. When he plays a hunch, he gets criticized by the same group for making "a stupid move". Every manager, no matter who they are, are going to make tons of decisions that you'll disagree (even in real time) over the course of the season.

 

I'm not saying he is beyond firing, but he's managed to have the team in the playoff chase heading into September. The recent failings fall onto his head, yes. But the early sucesses are something he also should get credit for. (Although, to some on here, Yost is the reason we are losing, while the players are the reason we win).

 

I wait to make my Yay or Nay until we get to October.

[SenatorShriv]

I have been firmly entrenched in the "let him stick it out" corner until now. If we don't win at least two games against the Cubs then he needs to go. If we lose two or three to the Cubs that will put us dangerously close to falling out of contention. At that point I think I would risk shaking things up a bit to see if a new manager could spark a late season rally. If we finish third there is no way Yost is back anyways, so you might as well try something else out.

[Fatter than Joey]

FTJ, there is no one on this site that thinks Ned is a top notch manager.

 

Maybe not anymore -- but there were definitely vocal people on this site that thought/think Yost was a top notch manager -- which is a perfectly reasonable stance to me, but one I have disagreed with for quite awhile now.

 

All I was saying in response to "invalid criticisms" was that most of the "praise/defense" of Yost is just as "invalid".

 

At the end of the day, pro-Yost or anti-Yost we aren't going to have cut and dry stats to whip out on each other, arguments are going to be largely subjective.

[logan82]

What's interesting to me about the conversation is that the argument is becoming "Ned should be fired" v. "Ned hasn't quite screwed up badly enough to merit firing -- yet." I don't really hear anyone coming out and saying affirmatively that Ned is a good manager, or that we're somehow lucky to have him at the helm.

 

I think enough of the franchise to argue that it deserves a quality manager, and not someone who maybe hasn't quite yet stumbled as badly as is possible.

 

That is because it is easy to criticize bad decisions and hard to pick out cases where he made good decisions. Usually when he makes a good decision it either goes unnoticed or people will say "well every manager does that anyway." As other people have said you are going to have a hard time quantifying how much impact a manager really has on a game. When something goes bad, wether they made the right decision or not, they are going to be the one to get the blame. Every manager bats his good hitters at the top and his bad hitters at the bottom.

 

As far as the clubhouse goes, I think we would have heard something already or will pretty soon if Ned has lost the player's confidence. I look back to the spring when we had 2 players stating that they wanted to be everyday starters. At this point I would say that Mench in particular has been getting the short end of the stick and might start making a big stink if things don't turn around soon.

[MarquesJohnson2000]

Mench, slugging .306 against right-handers, is getting the short end of the stick? I would disagree.

[RobertR]

At this point, I think it's fair to say that Yost and Maddux have not gotten the most out of the pitching staff that they have. How much of that is in the manager's and pitching coach's control is an open question, but the team's struggles are directly related to the struggles of Capuano, Suppan, and Bush and the trickle down effect of that ineffectiveness. Of course, they'll both look a lot "smarter" when Sheets returns.

 

I have some criticisms of how Yost handles the offense, primarily falling in love with guys on hot streaks when their larger body of work indicates it's not sustainable (Mench against righties and Gwynn being the primary offenses this year), but on most days the most talented 8 guys are on the field.

 

Yost was the right guy to take the Brewers from the depths they were at back to respectability, especially with his even keel temperment and patience. Whether he's the right guy to manage a contender or not is another question, and we'll likely find out over the next month.

 

Robert

[Bruce Ciskie]

I'm going to say "Nay" again.

 

Why?

 

Because he still has the job.

[logan82]

Mench, slugging .306 against right-handers, is getting the short end of the stick? I would disagree.

 

I am not saying I completley agree that he is, just that he views himself as an everyday starter and we haven't faced to many lefties recently so his playing time has been down.

[JohnBriggs12]

The only question I have is why wait? Put the man (and us) out of his misery.

[clancyphile]

The question is, who replaces him?

 

Garner's the first candidate who could push me to the Nay column - he did pretty well when left with less talent than what the Brewers have now.

[brewerjamie15]

At this point, I'm ready to say fire Neddy. He has been given talent. Lots of it. I know that quite a bit of his team is young, and Sheets (a walking injury), Cappy, and Soupy Sales have let him down, but he is still responsible for a lot of poor decisions and many non-decisions. Time to go dude. I have no suggestion for a replacement, but you need to leave now.

[bobskube]

I backed Yost as long as I could. I turned on him when they blew that game against the Reds two Sundays ago. Another 5 run lead let go. 18 games in which a team gives up a three run lead even with a pretty proven bullpen is unacceptable.

 

I still back Melvin though. The Linebrink move is only a bad one if Inman turns into more than a 5th starter. And who knows? Maybe they get someone good in the draft. The estrada-davis trade looks like a minor loss because you got 10 wins from a 5th starter and a very small upgrade at catcher.

 

Melvin biggest problem is his loyalty to Yost and at Texas to Johnny Oates. (God rest his soul.)