Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost

[Jopal78]

The Dog is right, Yost isn't out there walking batters and then grooving fat pitches over the plate, but he cannot skirt responsibility for the bad baseball they have played since the end of June. Sticking with Capuano for 15 straight losses coupled with blowing a huge division lead should just about be enough for Yost to get canned once the season is over. That is not even considering riding his starters deep into games when they are clearly tired, setting his bullpen arms up to fail, batting Estrada 5th for 50% of the games this year, hitting Mench against righties, etc. etc. etc.

 

Phil Garner is a manager who consistently gets "more" out of the talent he has on his roster; conversely since 2005 Yost has somehow been getting less and less out of the talent he has on his roster, and blowing a huge division lead in a year when both the Astros and Cardinals are down, is criminal, and Yost's culpability will most likely leave him jobless when the dust has cleared in October and the Brewers are not in the post season.

[Ennder]

Sticking with Capuano for 15 straight losses coupled with blowing a huge division lead should just about be enough for Yost to get canned once the season is over

 

Benching Capuano would be the thing that should get him fired. I'm all for ripping on Yost when he does something bad but benching a proven major league starter who isn't having any K or BB issues and is just giving up more singles than normal is just foolish.

 

10 starts into the year people wanted Bush benched too and he went on to give a 4.17 ERA and a 6-4 record since, you have to be patient with starting pitching especially when their base numbers look normal.

[Jopal78]

I'm not suggesting that Yost should have benched Capuano. There have been games during this bad period where he has pitched fine, and the offense hasn't scored for him. However, there are times when Capuano starts going south, and instead of Yost pulling Capuano right then and going to the pen, not only to save Capuano's confidence from another beating, but to not let the game get out of reach, Yost usually leaves Capuano in there until the damage is done and the Brewers are down by a crooked number (7/8/07 v. Was, 8/7/07 v. Col., 8/19/07 v. Cin).

 

That is what's wrong with his handling of Capuano, Yost waits and waits thinking Capuano is going to wiggle off the hook and he doesn't and it costs the Brewers games they should otherwise have won.

[viking188]

Apparently, neither Valentin himself nor the Reds' manager thought that Ned would let Linebrink pitch to him. This from the JS today:

 

Valentin seemed to take his time getting ready for his at-bat but later revealed that he was fully expecting Yost to pull right-hander Scott Linebrink and bring in lefty Brian Shouse to face him . . .Reds manager Pete Mackanin said he expected Yost to hail Shouse from the bullpen to face Valentin. "Yes, I was very surprised," Mackanin said. "I know it's a tough decision, but Javy struggles a little bit more from the right side than he does from the left."

 

Maybe they both knew that Valentin was 1-for-3 lifetime against Linebrink, with a home run, before last night's game. Or that he was 0-for-2 against Shouse, with a K.

 

And it would appear that everyone (except Mackanin/ and Yost) realised Junior was on the bench ready to go against a lefty. So everyone ripping Yost,would rather have Junior against Shouse, than Valentine against Linebrink, with bases loaded?????/

[Ennder]

And it would appear that everyone (except Mackanin/ and Yost) realised Junior was on the bench ready to go against a lefty. So everyone ripping Yost,would rather have Junior against Shouse, than Valentine against Linebrink, with bases loaded?????/

 

I don't see why they would have brought in Griffey to face a lefty. If they wanted Griffey they would have just pinch hit with him to begin with. Griffey has always hit better vs righties than vs lefties.

[adambr2]

Apparently, neither Valentin himself nor the Reds' manager thought that Ned would let Linebrink pitch to him. This from the JS today:

 

Valentin seemed to take his time getting ready for his at-bat but later revealed that he was fully expecting Yost to pull right-hander Scott Linebrink and bring in lefty Brian Shouse to face him . . .Reds manager Pete Mackanin said he expected Yost to hail Shouse from the bullpen to face Valentin. "Yes, I was very surprised," Mackanin said. "I know it's a tough decision, but Javy struggles a little bit more from the right side than he does from the left."

 

Maybe they both knew that Valentin was 1-for-3 lifetime against Linebrink, with a home run, before last night's game. Or that he was 0-for-2 against Shouse, with a K.

And it would appear that everyone (except Mackanin/ and Yost) realised Junior was on the bench ready to go against a lefty. So everyone ripping Yost,would rather have Junior against Shouse, than Valentine against Linebrink, with bases loaded?????/

 

Why would they have pinch hit Griffey, and burned Valentine in the process? That wouldn't be very smart, they're not going to burn Griffey on a lefty/lefty matchup, they would have taken their chances with Valentine batting righty against Shouse. Which would have been the right move for both teams. If the Reds are dumb enough to sit down a switch hitter in favor of a lefty batter to face Shouse, then absolutely you take your chances with that matchup.

[DougJones43]

Okay, so I was just talking to a buddy of mine, and he described an interview between Tom Haudricourt and Ned Yost that occurred over the weekend. Here is a rough transcript of what was apparently said:

 

TH: "Ned, you're getting bludgeoned, these games haven't even been close for the most part."

Yost- "Name one team that went through a season without struggles. Especially a young team."

TH: "Detroit last year went wire to wire with a young team."

Yost: "But even they struggled!"

TH: "Yeah, but they never lost so much that they got to within 2 games of .500 in mid-august."

Yost: "I only care about the 21st letter of the alphabet...W."

TH: "W is not the 21st letter."

Yost: (quickly counts out alphabet) "Ok, it's the 23rd letter. You lose track of which number it is when there's 46 letters in the alphabet." (yes, he said 46)

 

Maybe this was posted somewhere and I missed it, but can anyone else confirm that this actually happened? If it did, it's pretty much the funniest thing I've ever heard. This guy is managing a Major League team? In a sport that involves a high amount of intelligence and critical thinking? Good grief...

[don1481]

After the putrid play of the team in SF and their now being at .500, I'm now of the camp that something needs to change. And fast. Unfortunately, the players themselves can't exactly be swapped out at this point of the season all that easily - and even if it was possible, swapping out much of the ML roster would be fairly difficult - so therefore, there is but one choice left:

 

Ned Must Go.

[Ennder]

I'd think he stays manager for the last 32 games and how we play decides his fate. If the team is under .500 again this year I don't see how he isn't fired.

I don't see a ton to like about Yost as a manager. I think a lot of the complaints about him are misfounded but I rarely see him do something that stands out as a great move either. He is adequate to below average and I'm not sure thats going to be good enough to take this team to the playoffs.

[AJAY]

Maybe this was posted somewhere and I missed it, but can anyone else confirm that this actually happened?

 

Yup, it happened last week when the Reds were in town. They aired the interview on WSSP.

[Fike85]

Generall speaking I've been a Yost supporter, but look at some of these second halves:

2007: 16-26
2006: 31-41
2004: 22-53

Is all of that because of Yost? Obviously not. It's not his fault that Cordero's blown 2 saves when the bases were empty with 2 outs, it's not Yost's fault that Cappy forgot to pitch and Sheets keeps getting hurt, it's not Yost's fault that Moeller and Bennett were behind the plate in 2004, et cetera. A new manager is not going to be the be-all-end-all cure to our woes, but it couldn't hurt.

[don1481]

Ennder - how are a lot of the complaints against Ned misfounded?

 

He is adequate to below average and I'm not sure that's going to be good enough to take this team to the playoffs

 

Well... at this point, if management waits 32 more games, there won't be a playoffs for Ned to lose for the Brewers; they will have been eliminated during the final week.

 

The time for waiting has passed. Ned Yost needs to go.

[TooLiveBrew]

I stuck up for Ned for what has turned out to be far too long. I've defended him against many of the complaints as them being unfounded (most of which are). However, officially chalk up one more in the "Nay" column. This man simply makes poor choices. If Ned were in a class where all you had to do was read & complete "Choose Your Own Adventure" books, he'd get an F, no question.

 

When some schmo (read: me) can tell that Bush is nearing the end of the line, and his spot in the order comes to the plate, and he's shown time & time again that once he's tiring, he can't be relied upon to get through the next inning, and our GM went out and got another back-of-the-bullpen (7th inn.) specialist precisely for situations like this, the manager needs to know it's time to make the move.

 

I'm sick and tired of Ned's 'Let's see how this works out - if he blows the lead, I'll react then, instead of putting my team in the best situation I can possibly manage in attempt to prevent the lead from being blown' approach. It's cost us games all year long, and today's was as glaring as any of them...see previous paragraph.

 

All I can say is that, for the first time since he got the job, I honestly hope he's gone on Monday. There is a happy middle-ground between 'Losing your cool & yanking a starter' and 'Let's leave him in, even though any idiot can see we should utilize our talented relievers'. I hope this was Yost's Waterloo - because I fear that sticking with his oft-ignorant decision-making will cost this team even more than it already has.

[Ennder]

Ennder - how are a lot of the complaints against Ned misfounded?

 

I think a large portion of the bullpen complaints are just hindsight based complaints. The complaints about the lineups are mostly unwarrented also, especially the ones about resting the young players too much. If anything Yost didn't rest Hardy/Hart enough early in the season and they seemed to wear down as it went on and then he finally had to rest them.

 

I say mostly and a large portion because they are somewhat on base as well. I don't like the fact he switched Braun and Fielder for example, Yost does plenty of dumb things but a lot of the complaints are really just vents from people who are mad we lost a game.

[jlau20]

2004: 22-53

 

That was quite the remarkable stretch of baseball. That's for sure. Not saying I blame Ned for it or anything. I'm not even mad, I'm impressed.

[don1481]

I think a large portion of the bullpen complaints are just hindsight based complaints.

I fundamentally disagree with this. A large portion of the complaints that you see in the threads here originate in the chat room when Ned makes a decision that a number of us KNOW will most likely backfire, such as the Linebrink vs Valentin debacle or leaving in a pitcher based on what we can only chalk up to "Ned's Gut Feeling." The vast majority of the time - especially in these potential "game changing" situations - we are unfortunately vindicated by the decision that Ned made backfiring in his face. We're not so much "Monday Morning QBing" this as we are bringing up thoughts that originated in real time during the game.

Steering this back towards my decision to now come forth and say "Nay," something needs to be done. The players cannot be swapped out, for reasons I elaborated upon earlier. The only thing that CAN be done to attempt to try and salvage this season is to replace Ned Yost. It might already be far too late to save this, though, as the rotation has continued to spiral downward. And yes - DM is also accountable for his (in)actions at the deadline. Linebrink, while a nice component, was not the component that needed to be acquired as it turned out. A SP that could stabilize the rotation after Sheets went down was that missing piece.

 

[Ennder]

The vast majority of the time - especially in these potential "game changing" situations - we are unfortunately vindicated by the decision that Ned made backfiring in his face. We're not so much "Monday Morning QBing" this as we are bringing up thoughts that originated in real time during the game.

 

The problem is Yost can make the right move and have it not work out, that has as much to do with it as anything. There was absolutely nothing wrong with leaving Bush in the game today, nothing at all. He does not have a long term history of having problems the 3rd time through the order or late in games, he hasn't had any problems late in games since late in May, he had given up 3 hits and only 1 of the 3 hits was a really hard hit and he was under 80 pitches still.

 

But since he gave up a 2 run HR people think it proves that it was dumb to leave him in. That simply is not true, regardless of whether or not you wanted him out after the 6th the fact that you point at the results and say it was wrong is using hindsight. At least 60% of the time that ends up being an out, instead this time its a HR, the fact he gave up a HR seems to vindicate people when it really shouldn't.

 

If you simply said to take the SP out every single time the 7th inning started you would look smart a significant portion of the time, but unfortunately the manager doesn't know which times you are correct and he has to manage with bullpen usage in the back of his head. When the pitcher does make it through the7th fine those who said he should be out don't say it was a good choice, they just make no comment. When he does give up runs it proves they were correct. That is hindsight regardless of when you 'called it'.

[AJAY]

Alright, I feel stupid even posting this . . . but just for fun . . someone on the Brewers.com fan forum said the following . . .

 

 

We had a family gathering today, and my uncle said that he heard from a Brewers insider that if the Brewers got swept in San Fran, Yost would get canned, and Mark A would make a major move. He said that he doesn't know for sure if it's true but told me that he heard it from a very reliable source. We can only hope that this is true. Anyone else hear this?

 

 

Yeah, I know . . .

[aracko]

I say let Yost go and give the job for the rest of the season to MR TOMMY LASORDA.

 

Mark A has some connections with the man I am sure, and while I dont think he would be able to do the job next year, I bet there is a decent chance that he would give a dying team some motivation.

 

Anyhow - thats about as long of a longshot as there can be but he sure does love Ben Sheets.

[TooLiveBrew]

The problem is Yost can make the right move and have it not work out, that has as much to do with it as anything. There was absolutely nothing wrong with leaving Bush in the game today, nothing at all...

 

But since he gave up a 2 run HR people think it proves that it was dumb to leave him in. That simply is not true, regardless of whether or not you wanted him out after the 6th the fact that you point at the results and say it was wrong is using hindsight. At least 60% of the time that ends up being an out, instead this time its a HR, the fact he gave up a HR seems to vindicate people when it really shouldn't.

 

If you simply said to take the SP out every single time the 7th inning started you would look smart a significant portion of the time, but unfortunately the manager doesn't know which times you are correct and he has to manage with bullpen usage in the back of his head. When the pitcher does make it through the7th fine those who said he should be out don't say it was a good choice, they just make no comment. When he does give up runs it proves they were correct. That is hindsight regardless of when you 'called it'.

No, Ennder, I strongly disagree. Bush was visibly tiring (or simply starting to stink) today in the 6th inning, pitch count be darned. His location was much less sharp, and he started to leave pitches very much out over the plate. He gave up a 2-R HR because his command was slipping, which as mentioned was visible in the 6th. It's not merely 'convenient' for me & others that it happened this way. You mention making the correct move as merely an afterthought, since 'it could backfire too.' The right move was screaming at Ned's face to be made, and he still ignored it. Why not make the "right move," and then, if you exhaust your options as a manager, at least you can be confident that you put your team in the best position to win. Yost gambled on the least-effective option available to him, short of pitching Gallardo. Your point that you'd be right to pull your starter a significant portion and your mention of 60%-ish on getting an out as opposed to a HR really miss the point, imo.

My personal disagreement doesn't have anything to do with averages or statistics or projections. It simply has to do with the fact that the viewer (including any member of the coaching staff - heck, even Bushie himself, who kept glancing back into the dugout while still out there in the 7th) could see Dave Bush in the 6th & 7th was not the same pitcher as Bush in the 1st-5th. His location had visibly declined, plus his spot in the batting order was due up. So not only do you leave the pitcher in too long, you also (for all intents & purposes) sacrifice an offensive out, which you're supposed to be using in an attempt to do everything you can to pad that slim lead.

When you add into the mix that Linebrink was acquired to pitch nearly exactly in situations like today, this was a terrible non-move. What I would be saying, had Bush made it through the 7th, is, "Phew! He was freakin' lucky to get outta that without any more damage. He looked (near) done in the 6th!" If this team hadn't traded for Linebrink, and the 'pen was cashed (as it may well have been from this horrid series), sure, trot Dave out there again, and roll the dice. What irks me to the fullest is that Ned had almost literally every sign flashing to him that the correct move was to pull Bush, and he still gave it the ol' Yost 'Let's see how this plays out - I'll take him out if he blows the lead'

 

[TooLiveBrew]

We had a family gathering today, and my uncle said that he heard from a Brewers insider that if the Brewers got swept in San Fran, Yost would get canned, and Mark A would make a major move. He said that he doesn't know for sure if it's true but told me that he heard it from a very reliable source.

This would explain Yost's incredibly distant & uncharacteristic demeanor today in the post-game "interview." I obviously don't know how true or untrue this rumor is, and I'll admit to speculation, but man - it looked today after the game like Ned knew something even worse that none of us did.

[RU Rah Rah]

I don't personally blame Ned for every manifestation of failure that has befallen this team over the last 90 games. But, fairly or not, the nature of managing or coaching at the major college or major league level is that you're going to get credit when the team wins in much the same manner that you're going to get the blame when the team loses. Ned knows this as much as anyone.

 

Actually, in this particular case, I do think it's fair to point the finger at Ned, at least partly. After five years, it's obvious that he just doesn't have "it" as a manager -- '"it" being that mysterious blend of strategic skill and motivational power that pushes teams in the right direction.

 

I'm still perplexed by people who make the argument that Ned is entirely blameless for the team's collapse. From what I can gather, their claim seems to be, "You can't blame everything on him, because the players themselves are the ones screwing up, so you shouldn't hold him responsible at all." For me, the bottom line is winning games and showing progress, and Ned's not succeeding on either count.

 

My real fear is a non-playoff 84-win season -- something marginally acceptable. That might translate into him sticking around for another year. Either way, I don't think a decision is going to be made until after the season's over.

[Ennder]

Bush was visibly tiring (or simply starting to stink) today in the 6th inning, pitch count be darned. His location was much less sharp, and he started to leave pitches very much out over the plate

 

See I disagree with you. Durham hit a very good pitch for his double. Bush got a flyout and a groundout both on decent pitches. He gave up one hard hit double that wasn't very good location and he got a groundout on another good pitch. He made one mistake pitch in the 6th. Like I said in the vent thread, I have no issue with someone thinking going to a RP is a good idea there, but to say that Yost made a mistake by staying with Bush is really stretching things. If you want to blame someone blame Bush for giving up the 2 run HR to a non power guy.

[Fatter than Joey]

I'm still perplexed by people who make the argument that Ned is entirely blameless for the team's collapse. From what I can gather, their claim seems to be, "You can't blame everything on him, because the players themselves are the ones screwing up, so you shouldn't hold him responsible at all."

 

I agree 100% -- and what bothers me, is that the same people scald Bando/Taylor, when in fact, shouldn't we say "It wasn't Bando's fault Antone Williamson decided to suck"?

 

To take it one step further -- We are quick to call Royster/Lopes bad managers, but we are quick to let Yost off the hook because he "had no talent" in his first years -- I don't think Lopes/Royster had much better talent. I have never thought Yost was a good manager -- and he has done very little to change my opinion -- 5 years is a very fair amount of time to get things turned around.

 

IMO if you want to let Ned off the hook, and blame the players -- you can't then pick and choose which former managers/GM were bad and good.

 

At the end of the day, I think this argument comes from people who want to like Yost because he was a former Brewer.

[patrickgpe]

up until recently i was one of the most unapologetic yost supporters there was. I felt he was a good motivator and the players liked him. He may not be the best in game manager, but hard work can make up for that. I can no longer support him. It appears he has no ideas on how to fix this slumping. He even said at a recent press conference that he was going to get a good nights sleep and hope that it gets better tomorrow. Players hear this and it can't be good. I think with the influx of young talent we can actually get a manager with some experience. This slide coincided with Sheets injury. which Ned can't be blamed for, but his lack of any plan minus changing the lineup everyday is not acceptable.