Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost

[Nearsighted Views]

2 things about Ned that have me firmly in the Nay camp:

 

1. He doesn't practice what he preaches. You have to stay even tempered he tells us with his smug, condescending tone and then proceeds to yell at reporters when they ask legitimate questions and stomp out of 1 minute press conferences like a 2 year old child.

 

2. He's always talked about matchups and played the percentages. I remember reading a quote from him a couple of years ago. When asked what he does when all the numbers are even and he's forced to make a decision. Do you go on your gut? "I find another layer" And then he makes that move today. Which is it?

 

I think he's cracked under the pressure and he's lost the respect of the fans and, more importantly, the team.

[1992casey]

I'm pretty impatient with the press, so bear with me on this one, but I think I'd lose it talking to those people, too. It seems that they're more interested in creating news than reporting it, so when Ned gets angry at them, I have to believe he's thinking the same thing.

[Never Outhustled]

I think we know 3 things about Neds teams five years into the job. No matter how many times we change the players, his teams are awful defensively, lousy on the road, and collapse in the 2nd half. I can no longer find any way the latter 2 are someone else's fault.

 

Doug Melvin needs to make a change, or its his job that will be on the line. I think this team is talented enough to win much more, but if Melvin sticks with Yost, he is saying this team isn't underacheiving. That would then mean Melvin didn't build a very good team.

 

The results this season are not good enough for year five of a building project that was well underway before he started. (Jenkins, Sheets, Hart, Hardy, Parra and Fielder had already been drafted.) Its time for new leadership, preferably from the field manager spot. However, if Melvin doesn't agree, then I'd have to consider promoting Jack Z and letting him pick the next manager.

[Nearsighted Views]

I'm pretty impatient with the press, so bear with me on this one, but I think I'd lose it talking to those people, too. It seems that they're more interested in creating news than reporting it, so when Ned gets angry at them, I have to believe he's thinking the same thing.

 

I get that and I see your point. But if everything is always the same, there should be no change in his handling of the press based on the outcome of the game or the question asked. I may be off mark here but I don't ever remember him getting so nasty in the past. My point, I guess, is that he's losing his composure under pressure on one side of his mouth and telling his players not to do that out of the other. When you do that, you lose respect. I believe he's lost this team.

[DuWayne Steurer]

We can say we'd lose it with the press, but that's part of Ned's job. Handling press is nothing new for a major league manager, whether the questions are stupid or not. I think his actions lately with his players and the press are very telling concerning his composure now that there's actually something on the line late in the season. Ned is doing a very poor job of handling the pressure, at least in my opinion.

[Ennder]

No matter how many times we change the players, his teams are awful defensively, lousy on the road, and collapse in the 2nd half. I can no longer find any way the latter 2 are someone else's fault.

 

2 of the 5 years they were better in the 2nd half than the 1st half and one of the years we had basically the same RS vs RA. So there has been two 2nd half collapses under Yost, this is the 2nd one.

[madtowndrunkard]

Fire him.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Ned fired now.

 

Give Skaalen a shot as the interm coach. If by chance Kremblas is hired to replace Ned, it wouldn't shock me to see him keep Skaalan. Not to mention maybe it would spark something on this team?

[DuWayne Steurer]

So there has been two 2nd half collapses under Yost, this is the 2nd one.

This team is on pace to have the 2nd worst post ASB record ever recorded by a team that had a winning record at the break. The first? 2004 Milwaukee Brewers.

 

A couple of 2nd half collapses is one thing. 2 of the most monumental collapses ever?

[Ennder]

So there has been two 2nd half collapses under Yost, this is the 2nd one.

This team is on pace to have the 2nd worst post ASB record ever recorded by a team that had a winning record at the break. The first? 2004 Milwaukee Brewers.

 

A couple of 2nd half collapses is one thing. 2 of the most monumental collapses ever?

Thats fine but you can't say they always fade in the 2nd half because it isn't true. The 2004 collapse sucked but that team was playing way over its head in the 1st half so it didn't bother me all that much, it was simply not a talented team. This fade pretty much stinks this year.

[Pedro]

... if Melvin sticks with Yost, he is saying this team isn't underacheiving. That would then mean Melvin didn't build a very good team.

 

Interesting point. I think this takes the discussion to a whole new level.

 

In it's simplest form we have two options: 1) The team is talented but underachieving, so the manager is at fault; or 2) the overall talent is not good enough to win even a poor division so the general manager is at fault.

 

I suppose a third option could be: the team has marginal talent and is still underachieving, so both the manager and general manager are at fault. Hmmm....that's a scary thought. Goodnight.

[MNBrew]

Scattered thoughts because I just can't go to bed this early:

 

1. I disagree that Yost has lost his players. Using the dugout blowup as justification ignores all the details of the situation and Ned's response to it -- in which he lauded the veteran leadership of Graffanino & Estrada, who stood up for a younger player (reported to be Hardy). Prolonged tough stretches make folks testy. We've seen it before: Everyone on this board would be equally concerned if they lost this much and showed no signs of being testy (which I take as a reflection of their competitive nature). It's then that we'd hear what we've heard in other situations: This team isn't emotional enough. This team plays with no fire. This team just takes losses rolling over. Etc. This is a very unified team, apparently a very close team. I'd need to see a lot more evidence before I'd buy the notion that Yost has lost his players.

 

2. What I like about Doug Melvin is that he's been a GM long enough, and is respected enough throughout the game, that he'll know full well if Yost is really best-suited to manage this team. I don't buy the logic that if a team is talented yet underperforms, it must be the fault of the manager. To me, that's an oversimplification.

 

3. I've watched administrators in my job continue to grow much more savvy, wise, and polished in their 2nd decades on the job than in their 1st decade. Yost isn't a bad manager overall. But he does have room to grow. And maybe some of those areas for growth are finally being revealed because this is the 1st year the Brewers have been good enough to get Yost into some of those aspects of managing. I hope Yost grows from this crappy stretch and becomes the better manager the Brewers need him to be BEFORE everything is lost this year.

 

4. The nature of a board like this is that it attracts reasonably to exceptionally well informed and passionate fans. That's also the same sector of the fan base most likely to nit-pick every little detail and call for a manager's head when a team loses a lot. And it's human nature for the complaining voices to be the loudest because they're arguing for change that hasn't happened yet. . . . . In other words, it's just the nature of things that you likely wouldn't find an "extend Yost's contract" or "Yost for Manager of the Year" thread nearly as passionate as this one if the Brewers happened to be doing extremely well.

 

5. Has anyone else noticed the relative parallel between the Brewers' record and play this year and the production of Johnny Estrada? I hope this trip to his old AZ home jogs Estrada's memory of what it is to hit .300 and drive in 70-80 runs.

 

6. On an unrelated note, I wish the Diamondbacks had purple in their uniforms everywhere they presently have red. Red has almost become the new navy blue or, a decade ago, teal.

[BREWCREW5]

Nay.

 

I have been a big supporter of Yost but I have to say it guys. The team needs to go in a different direction.

[adambr2]

I'd agree with the going a different direction part. It's time. We're not continuing to head in a positive direction like we should be. At this point, lack of progress isn't acceptable. Ned will find work elsewhere, but Milwaukee isn't the right fit for him anymore.

 

Things like what he said post-game tonight just get to me a little bit. When questioned about why Shouse wasn't put in against Valentine, he simply stated he liked Linebrink in that situation? What would make him logically "like" Linebrink in that situation? Because Linebrink had already thrown a good number of pitches? Because Shouse has a great rate of stranding inherited runners, and a 2.61 ERA? Because Valentine's career numbers indicate that he can't hit lefties for crap? What possible evidence was there to indicate that he "liked" Linebrink in that situation?

 

If the honest truth was that he had no freaking clue what Valentine's splits were batting right-handed, and he figured he was just as well with Linebrink against a lefty than Shouse against a righty, I'd at least respect him a little more if he just came out and said so.

 

Not saying that he really didn't have a clue, but I certainly don't think it's outside the realm of possibility.

[Fatter than Joey]

Thus, I guess I just strongly disagree with the idea that Yost should be fired because he's been here 5 years and hasn't won.

 

Generally speaking in any sports, college or professional -- 5 years is more than fair for a manager to turn a team around. Let's not pretend that the Brewers are the only team in the history of organized sports that sucked, and needed to turn things around. Nedgar is not in uncharted waters here.

 

I suppose a third option could be: the team has marginal talent and is still underachieving, so both the manager and general manager are at fault. Hmmm....that's a scary thought. Goodnight.

 

This was an exact thought I had last night Pedro. We keep hearing things like "We can't blame the manager, when the players suck" -- using that sort of logic we should probably let Sal Bando off the hook, as it wasn't Bando's fault, as Sean Berry (or any other sucky Brewer draft/trade acquisition) chose to suck. IMO the managers (Doug and Ned) are in fact directly responsible for the results on the field.

 

In either case, if I am Doug Melvin, I would be pretty anxious to introduce Ned to the new Brewers employee, the underside of the bus.

 

Ennder -- Congratulations on your crossover! -- The darkside welcomes and eagerly anticipates what you will able to do when you use your "light-sabre" (bad pun, sorry) purely for the advancement of evil.

[RU Rah Rah]

Apparently, neither Valentin himself nor the Reds' manager thought that Ned would let Linebrink pitch to him. This from the JS today:

 

Valentin seemed to take his time getting ready for his at-bat but later revealed that he was fully expecting Yost to pull right-hander Scott Linebrink and bring in lefty Brian Shouse to face him . . .Reds manager Pete Mackanin said he expected Yost to hail Shouse from the bullpen to face Valentin. "Yes, I was very surprised," Mackanin said. "I know it's a tough decision, but Javy struggles a little bit more from the right side than he does from the left."

 

Maybe they both knew that Valentin was 1-for-3 lifetime against Linebrink, with a home run, before last night's game. Or that he was 0-for-2 against Shouse, with a K.

[JohnBriggs12]

Had Yost not been hired by Melvin, he would have been gone a long time ago. Melvin knows if his guy fails, it reflects on him.

 

It may take Attanasio getting some stones and firing Melvin first to assure Yost going. Given the crowds this year, who knows if Mark is going to look at the finances or the W/L record.

 

Yost came here in the perfect situation. As a team coming off of 106 losses, he had 2 full seasons completely free of any pressure to win whatsover. He stumbled in the 2nd half of year 2, but because he was still in his "free ride" period he could say, well his team overachieved the first half of 04 and because they weren't very far removed from the 02 debacle people bought that easily.

 

His getting to .500 level (imagine being able to set a goal that low in your 3rd season), bought him another "free" season in 06. This year when they got to an 8 1/2 game lead in a weak division, actual pressure hit him for the first time.

[bklynbrewcrew]

I truly believe that Yost has lost this team. That dugout skirmish against the Mets was the beginning of the end. Ned has always been terrible strategically but it was always thought that the players liked him and would go all out for him. That is no longer the case and therefore Kremblas should be given the opportunity to right the ship now before it really is too late.

[strawbossisevil]

I truly believe that Yost has lost this team. That dugout skirmish against the Mets was the beginning of the end. Ned has always been terrible strategically but it was always thought that the players liked him and would go all out for him. That is no longer the case and therefore Kremblas should be given the opportunity to right the ship now before it really is too late.

He isn't terrible strategically, he's probably pretty average. Every manager has their share of head scratchers. He isn't the best in game manager in the world, and he certainly isn't the worst.

Who says the players don't like him, or won't go all out for him? You have no proof of that. Do you have any proof that the players are laying down because they don't like Yost? Or are you just saying that without any facts to support you other than a brief spat in the dugout that had been resolved a long time ago.

 

Yost hasn't "lost his team". They aren't laying down, why would they when that effects their stats and future income. This "he's lost this team" talk is completely unfounded, unless someone can show any speck of truth (be it visible efforts to tank by individual players, or speaking out over and over against their manager).

 

I would say that Ned has a lot more respect from his players than most managers, because he doesn't run his players under the bus in front of the media. He speaks up for them and defends them. His team has just been playing badly (something he and every other player on that team is responsible for).

 

Right now, I think the Brewers best bet is to finish the season with Yost at the helm. If they make the playoffs or make a strong surge and finish around 6-8 games over .500, I say you keep him for another year. If they fail to make the playoffs or have any meaningful surge, then I say go ahead and get somebody new. Just let the season play out, despite all of the bad playing lately, he's still managed to manage his team within a couple games of making the playoffs (at this point). And if they go on a tear here at the end, all of the Nay sayers are going to look rather foolish for wanting to out the guy who brought this team to the playoffs for the first time in 15 years.

 

[bklynbrewcrew]

This team is in contention for two reasons; they got off to a great start and the division is awful. With this much talent the team is way underachieving and that falls at the feet of Yost. He has had long enough to turn this team around and this second half collapse should mean the end of Yost now not later.

[lukevan]

I wish a new manager could turn this team around, but I just don't see a manager having that much impact. Maybe a different manager would've been worth 2-3 extra wins this season, which would certainly help right now, but I doubt a different manager would've been able to stave off this current lull we are in with some different "strategy / coachiness". In professional baseball (different from other sports), the players are who need to get it turned around, and our youth I believe is playing a larger role in the team wearing down than the manager.

 

Having said that, Ned won't hang on to his job if we keep falling apart like this.

[strawbossisevil]

And Yost had a part to play in the great start, right? He isn't just a part of their failures, he is also a part of their successes. The Brewers team may or may not be underachieving IMO. Their starting pitching has been very very poor lately. Capuano, for example, losing 16 straight games he's started. Vargas, is slightly below average. Gallardo is just breaking in to the majors, so it's no surprise he's going to struggle a little bit. Sheets has been injured for a month now. And Bush and Suppan have been nothing better than average.

 

Without Sheets in the rotation, there is very little upside amongst our starters at this point. Capuano tanked, Yost doesn't have a lot to do with that. Gallardo is a rookie who's going to take his lumps, Yost can't avoid that. Vargas, is just below average, Yost can't make him into a stud.

 

The Brewers have tons of potential and talent on offense, and they've managed to score a decent amount of runs this season. But their team defense and pitching have been just plain awful (a fact that has been magnified with the loss of Sheets). It's pretty easy to "underachieve" when your team's starting pitching hasn't been fooling anyone in months. When your starting pitching has been the worst in baseball (as it has been lately), it's pretty easy for the losses to start piling up.

[JohnBriggs12]

MNBrew said this on the dougout blowup "ignores the details of the situation and Ned's response...praising leadership..."

 

MNBrew, I think you fell victim to a spin job done to douse the situation in the media. I didn't buy that explanation for one second. Now it may well be that Graffanino and Estrada were indeed showing leadership, but to think that Yost's motivation for getting on Hardy in the first place was to find out who would come to his defense is pretty far-fetched.

[Roscoe Chill]

Of course no one can prove the statement Ned Yost has lost this team. Just like no one can prove the statement that he hasn't lost this team. When do the results on the field get taken in to account? Five years is plenty. And if this team is going to continue the tank job, at least for me the bright spot will be that it will mean the end of Ned Yost's tenure.

[Brian the Automator]

When do the results on the field get taken in to account? Five years is plenty.

Ok, since Melvin put the team together, why isn't he accountable? Are you honestly holding the teams losses in '03 and '04 against Yost?

 

[Roscoe Chill]

No, I'm not. I'm saying that sooner or later the results should matter. That is this season.