Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost

[JJHardy7]

We need leadership...I don't care who it comes from, but that's what the Brewers need and that applies to a lot of what AJAY said (many of them are good points). It's not going to come from Ned, but I think you could put blame on 1-3 and 9 on Ned's leadership/veteran leadership.

[MNBrew]

I don't consider myself a Yost apologist by any stretch, even though many of my comments may make it seem so. I do think that crappy stretches like this seemingly endless one get almost everyone looking for scapegoats, and the manager is a natural target. It's become the norm. But I don't think it's always the right solution (see: MN Timberwolves before vs. after firing Flip Saunders). I try to keep my view based on the bigger picture and how the manager does his job overall -- still trying to differentiate between where it's the player blowing it and where it's the manager blowing it. . . . To summarize, as we so often hear, not too up with the ups and not too down with the downs. . . .

 

All that said, the one thing that's started sticking in my craw in looking over Yost's track record as the Brewers' manager -- perhaps enough to change my mind on just how much Yost is to blame for this free fall -- is this:

 

Yost's Brewer teams pretty consistently get off to respectable starts, which is good. However, when things start going badly and start to snowball, Yost's teams seem to have a hard time making enough meaningful adjustments to break the funk and turn things around before the skid becomes a total free fall. Ajay's list above cites a few such examples. And while some of those things still boil down to player execution, some things also speak to the mentality of his team and how Yost teaches/coaches/manages through adversity. On one hand it's good to keep a steady approach to things. But when you keep hitting your head against the wall and ultimately don't do enough to move away from the wall, that's a problem. Ned's teams generally do a respectable job coming out of spring training. But it sure seems like he's trying to manage now the way he did in April. And while theoretically that ought to work, the fact is that it doesn't work and Ned needs to figure out how to manage differently so bad streaks like this one end sooner, not in September. In fact, the more I think about it, he's not even managing like he did in April. Where is the aggressive baserunning? Where is any attempt to bunt for base hits, or to consistently utilize speed? Where are any consistent attempts to do something the opponent wouldn't expect them to do? At the moment this does have more of the look of hoping not to lose vs. playing to win.

 

Pardon the personal-level illustration. I only mention it because it helps make my point . . .

 

I am a band teacher. My bands generally play quite well. Periodically, however, they've gone onstage for a concert and really underperformed for how well they've been doing in rehearsal. Their best umpteen performances of the music got left in the band room. That shouldn't happen. And the kids know when they've messed up like that, and they're similarly disappointed. As their director, I know I've taught them how to play. But in those not-so-good concert moments I know that alone is not enough. I need to do a better job of proactively teaching a mindset and preparing them to perform so that they have a really good chance of their best performances of the various pieces occurring during the concert. I DON'T teach them to go onstage hoping not to screw up. I teach them how to go onstage confidently and expecting to deliver a performance that shows them at their best. And when I prepare them MENTALLY the right way, that's what usually happens.

 

In short, I think Ned's a bit stuck in how he handles things, too, just like the players are when they're pressing. He needs to get unstuck. Maybe another way to look at it is that this is a prime chance for him to grow as a manager in a very important and necessary way. I want to think he can do it, and I really hope he does. I don't think Ned should be fired. But I'd feel a lot better about that notion if most of the same glaring issues for this team wouldn't keep coming up seemingly every year.

[bigredrobbo]

Oh goody - another "Fire Ned Yost" thread.

 

I look forward to those like an 8 run 5th inning...

[homer]

Red, try and contribute something other than a rag on other posters.

[bigredrobbo]

Red, try and contribute something other than a rag on other posters.

 

Homer, you're right. I didn't realize it was after 12 midnight. This is actually Saturday's "Fire Ned Yost" Thread. My bad...

[RU Rah Rah]

If the quality of the manager doesn't impact the team's performance, then why even have one? Or a coaching staff, for that matter? Just draw the batting order out of a hat (which Ned apparently does anyway) and see what happens.

 

It's obvious that Ned isn't the proximate cause of every single miscue or underperformance. The players themselves do indeed need to make throws, drive in runs, etc. However, I think the history of the game has shown that players have come together and done those things better under certain managers rather than others.

 

I haven't been a hard-core Yost-basher in the past, mainly because I didn't think he had the personnel to win. This year has been different -- the team has talent, and the division is weak overall -- and it's fast becoming a train wreck for the Brewers. I think that Ned has to be held accountable for that and get the ax, if the team continues to falter and finishes at .500 or below.

 

Should he get canned, I can't imagine that other teams would be clamoring to hire him in the off-season. That probably says something about Ned's performance (or lack thereof) in Milwaukee.

[dvoiss]

Ned's 1st half/ 2nd half splits (win pct):

 

03 .398/.449

04 .523/.293

05 .477/.527

06 .489/.431

07 .557/.382 (thru 8/16)

 

In 2 of his five years he has had a better record in the second half including his only non losing season in 05. So the statements about 2nd half collapses aren't exactly accurate. it just seems that way because of what happened in 04 and 07. Having said that I still feel Ned needs to go because this team is far too talented to playing as poorly as they are. I exprected inconsistency because of the youth but they way they have played in the 2nd half is just too much for a team that has remained relatively healthy.

[Ennder]

Ned's 1st half/ 2nd half splits (win pct):

 

03 .398/.449

04 .523/.293

05 .477/.527

06 .489/.431

07 .557/.382 (thru 8/16)

 

In 2 of his five years he has had a better record in the second half including his only non losing season in 05. So the statements about 2nd half collapses aren't exactly accurate. it just seems that way because of what happened in 04 and 07. Having said that I still feel Ned needs to go because this team is far too talented to playing as poorly as they are. I exprected inconsistency because of the youth but they way they have played in the 2nd half is just too much for a team that has remained relatively healthy.

 

Plus in 2006 there was a very tangible reason for the collapse with all the injuries.

[1992casey]

Please consolidate all Ned yay or nay discussion to this thread.

This has succeeded the previous general Yost thread in the designated threads list. As a reminder, because this topic has such significant potential for duplication, check the list or the Yost tag before starting a new thread. This one should hold us for a while.

[sheethead]

There are many good points in this thread, some for Ned and some against. At the beginning of the year I was all for Ned Yost. He is a good guy, and his heart seems to be in the right place. However, he is not getting the job done as an MLB manager. He has done nothing to show he will turn this year or any other year into success. I fear that if he ever did somehow make the playoffs that he would just embarrass himself on a national level. He really needs to be let go right now, and that is my opinion.

[dpapo]

While I am not a Yost backer, I basically agree with Brian. If the team finishes a game or two above or below .500 I think he should go, but if the team starts to turn things around and finishes a few games above .500 then I think he stays. I've seen a number of good and bad Brewer teams over the years, as well as whole lot of baseball games in my life. I supported Garner as manager in the 90's, so I understand the other side of the argument and why people don't think Yost is to blame, but I just don't think Yost's teams have played good baseball. When the team is hot or on a roll, they can overcome the mistakes they make, but when they cool off, then have a hard time overcoming their mistakes. And it can look really ugly when they are going through a dry spell.
I hope that the team plays well tonight and starts to go on a hot streak that carries them all the way to the playoffs. I may not be a Yost backer, but if they win, then I have to give Yost credit for that. And of course as a Brewer fan, I just want them to win. I would much rather be wrong in my judgement of Yost and see the Brewers go to the playoffs, cause I get no happiness or satisfaction in being right and seeing the team lose.

[windiv07]

General Overview:

 

I have been arguing since mid-May that on almost a daily basis we have seen one or more pretty obvious in-game decisions made by Yost that fundamentally defy basic baseball strategy. Early in the season, these worked out when the offense & the pitching was overperforming. We are seeing Tony Larusso doing that now when his Cardinals club is in this very phase of performance only now in August (like batting his pitchers in the 8th spot & then putting Branden Ryan in the 9th spot). The trick is knowing when to roll the dice & when not to. When your club is underperforming (particularly offencively) you pull in your horns, yank starters & relief pitchers at the first sign of a problem, and cross your fingers that your pen can hold up through the cold stretch. Ned does not and has never seemed to have any sense of this whatsoever and protects the pen at all costs. Further, when the Brewers are up, his inconsistent approach to exactly when and when not to gove the green light to a hitter or a runner has been mind boggling. it seems alost to be too much for him to handle.

 

It was at about this same time (mid-May) we began to see sign of impatience with the younger pitchers (remember in Chicago the dressing-down Varlos Villenueva got?) and sporradic initial appearances by Yost (instead of Maddux) to the mound (sometimes heated) for so-called 'strategy sessions' at pivotal moments (normally after a walk in a close game). Now lately what we instead see is a wincing and brooding Yost in the dugout in similar in-game circumstances.

 

My Speculation:

 

Somebody has talked to Ned about his recent handling of these younger players. I feel strongly that if you treat someone as an adult, they will tend to behave more like an adult. But here is the problem: Outbursts like Fielder's (leading to the suspension) require a mentoring session (in private). When a manager tends to reprimand in public, it is likely that they are less comfortable confining such corrective measures in private. The converse is just as true.

 

That said, I see Yost's recent in-game brooding and wincing as more than just a manager seeing 1st place slip away because of bad pitching & lack of timely hitting. I see it as the frustration of a man who simply does not have it in him to make it a consistent practice to praise individual members of his team in public and reprimand them in private who is now straining with every fiber of restraint he can muster to avoid his own tendancies to the contrary. And I suggest that a few games here and there have been lost as a result of bad chemistry which is the manager's responsibility to address immediately.

 

I have never agreed with public reprimand. It may very well be that Mike Maddux is not comfortable being the threat messenger (which, I suugest, is why we have seen Ned so much initially). It could be these two are playing 'good-cop / bad-cop' with the staff. I have never agreed with any of these approaches and never will. I saw this emerging in May. Now, after a long team performance drought on both sides of the inning, it is catching up with the Brewers and under current management, in my view, it is too late to salvage. Team morale is in a shambles and one cannot expect the same leader who tends one way to completely change his style to another and then right the ship. Everyday players will not buy it. Anyone who has ever been dressed down in front of 40,000 fans in a hostile stadium and several hundred thousand viewers certainly won't either.

 

So that's my Yost thesis and my reason for having called for his termination since mid-June.

 

Just out of curiosity, can I get a cogent reason what the detriment to a club who fires a manager in the middle of a late-August pennant race? And if you can leave out that it 'was just never done before as a matter of practice' and focus on the impact on the 2007 Brewers, that would help me immensely.

[Fatter than Joey]

I don't think Yost is the problem for this team, I don't think he is really the solution either. If the team does end up under .500 on the year I would hope they fire him.... but the team has just looked horrible this last two weeks.

 

I agree with this a lot. -- Especially the last part.

 

We all should understand that "playing good" can result in "bad results". This is to say a team that won 10 out of 14 games in April, can pretty much do the same thing and lose 10 out of 14 in May. There is nothing anybody can do about that but weather the storm. "Bad results" suck, but if you are watching players "playing good", while these bad results are happening, it still is a valuable product.

 

Right now, the Brewers are playing horribly. The cuss filter probably needs to be disabled to properly describe how bad the Brewers are playing. More often than not, "playing bad" will result in "bad results". It's like flipping a loaded coin and expecting heads to come up 50% of the time.

 

I don't think it is prudent to expect .500 baseball from this team the rest of this season, not because of their current W/L record/results, but because of watching their circus act out on the field. If this sort of play continues I can't imagine Yost ever managing again (outside of KC perhaps).

 

I really don't look at this from a "Does Ned deserve to be fired?" -- rather a "What has Ned done to deserve this job". I don't think he has done much of anything to show he deserves another shot (of course a better product in AUG/SEP would change my mind).

 

a big NAY for me

[kmcasper23]

Too inconsistent for my liking. Got to go!

[Brewer Fever]

Both Ajay's list and beginning remarks shed light on a few excellent points. The talent added this year and the fact that Fielder is a having an MVP calibur season make it hard to fathom us playing like one of the worst teams in baseball since the All-Star break. Just too much talent to ever accept that scenario.

 

Why does Yost constantly tinker with the lineup but never once touch the rotation which is truely killing us? Three bad games batting and you get a seat on the bench or you drop 5 spots in the lineup. Yet starters can ride 6+ ERAs for months at a time and suffer no consequences. Remember all that talk about how excited they were with all their starting pitching depth. Well, Yost must have completely forgotten about it because if he gave it one ounce of thought, a change in the rotation would have been made a long time ago. I wonder how the hitters feel knowing they have to go 2-4 or better every night to keep their spot as they watch starters like Cappy, Suppan, and Vargas lay eggs every night without any threat of losing their job? Can you say pressing and resentment?

 

As for Ajay list...

 

#'s 1-4 and 6-9 can all be partially to significantly pinned on Yost, with 3 and 9 essentially being the same failure.

 

Yost has not been able to crack the formula for getting these guys in the right mindset to play on the road. Same players, same talent, yet they respond differently on the road. It's Yost's job to pinpoint the reason and fix it. Do they need a curfew? Do they need a different pre-game routine? The only one with any power to get to the bottom of that glaring issue is Yost himself. Not only has he failed miserably, I have yet to hear any whispers that he attempted to figure out what could be the reason for it and act accordingly.

 

A common denominator of these second half choke jobs is the collapsing bullpen. Many of us were screaming at the beginning of the year that these guys were being overworked. The response was that the starters would soon be stretched out and the workload on the bullpen would diminsh. Well Ned refuses to stretch the starters out even when they pitch well. And he refuses to let relievers pitch more than an inning at a time leading to the use of 5 relievers a night and having guys up every day in the pen as opposed to having 1-2 guys throw 2 or more innings and then getting a few days off. 3-4 days off do not amount to being rusty. Linebrink got a week off and came back throwing darts. The starters never get stretched out, get tired after 83 pitches in a game they've given up 1 run and we find ourselves wearing out a 8 man bullpen. Remember the long lost days of the 11-man pitching staff before Yost? Now not even 12 guys is enough for the way he abuses these guys.

 

Where is the agressiveness against subpar teams? Where are the hit and runs? Where are the stolen bases? That '92 team ran on everybody. Listach was the only new face stealing bags, Gardner had everybody running including some of the plodders. Guys like Hall, Jenkins, and Fielder are capable of stealing a base if you're agressively looking for the opportunity. Those guys aren't going to steal on their own. The manager needs to recognize when there's a poor-throwing catcher out there combined with a pitcher with a slow delivery. Watching the Brewers we all know how few catchers throw well and how few pitchers hold runners well. Where are the bunt attempts for hits on nights when the opposing pitcher is lights out? That night against Harang where we lost in extras 2-1, you could tell on the very first batter that Harang was nasty. All we needed was to squeak out 1 more run and we would have won that game. Where was the bunt out of Rickie, Corey, or even Braun to get a rally started? Molitor did it all the time. I'd say he was a pretty good hitter. Corey and Rickie have been on the big club long enough that if Yost was determined, he'd have those guys becoming good to great bunters by now,. That is of course if he made them work at it. That's part of the job. If he has to have them out there working on their bunting 6 days a week, then so be it.

 

If you play not to screw up the potential 3-run homer, then your players are going to start swinging the bats as if the only way to score a run is to hit a homer. Simple as that.

 

What about sitting back and doing nothing as your team leader gets plunked repeatedly to the point that when it happens now he reacts like a maniac out of frustration. What would your feelings be as a player if the face of your team kept getting drilled and your manager never intiated a response? Why haven't the Brewers put an opposing player on his ass in response? I'm not sure how well liked A-Rod is by his teammates but when Toronto beaned him recently for his childish "I got it" episode, Clemens came right back and drilled a Blue Jay getting both Clemens and Torre tossed. The Yankees have been playing pretty well lately haven't they?

 

The only managerial display I ever witness out of Yost is to change the batting order every other day. A poorly trained monkey could do that.

[bobskube]

Unlike some, I am sticking to what I said in the beginning of the season

 

Ned Yost should stay with this team till the end of the season. If the team fails to reach the playoffs or at least does not finish strong-he should be let go.

 

He has done a pretty good job building the team...now we need someone that knows how to win. The Brewers need an experienced manager to fill the void that has credibility. I know it will not happen, but Tony LaRussa would be perfect here in Milwaukee.

[windiv07]

"The only managerial display I ever witness out of Yost is to change the batting order every other day. A poorly trained monkey could do that. "

 

http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/frown.gif While I resemble that remark, I resent it. I am very well trained.

[adamb100]

If the Brewers go below 500 and miss the playoffs I think Yost will be gone for sure.

[Invader3K]

Under that scenario, adamb, I think you are right. There wouldn't really be any more excuses at that point.

 

Personally, I do feel the Brewers are going to turn this around at some point. I don't think they can possibly keep playing this badly through the final six weeks of the season. At some point, the law of averages will kick in, and they'll start winning some games. The main question is if they can do that before they are basically eliminated from post-season contention.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

I guess that I am ready to see a change with the manager. I don't think Ned should get all of those Bart Starr opportunities. I don't think that Ned is a terrible manager. I just look at results. This team melted down in 2004, last year, and now this year. Our bullpen seems to self-destruct every year. He has had the same closer from start to finish in 2004 and this year. Kolb really struggled at the end of 2004 and Coco has been at best inconsistent for the last couple of months. Last spring I posted that I though Turnbow would burn out because he was going too many consecutive days, I felt that my prediction was vindicated. So this year, we do the same thing with Coco. When do we learn? This spring I posted that we were going to burn out our bullpen because of all of our short starts. I think that I have been right. Yet, we never tried to remedy that problem. We just waited for it to work its way out. I also feel that we are getting killed in match-ups. Other teams seem to have the ability to match our hitters with a pitching change and end the inning. We seem to committed to making a change and having that pitcher stay in the game until his turn at bat comes up. Not only do we face bad match-ups, but we put our pitcher in a position where he needs a couple of days of rest which he won't get. On the other end of the spectrum we almost never pinch-hit for position players, so we tend to lose those same match-ups. Another area of contention is the lack of passion that we play with. We seem to play without the proper focus. We seem to not to be ready for plays in the field, while being constantly fooled at the plate. I am tired of watching us pull breaking balls into easy ground outs. My biggest contention is our inability to execute. Griffey's little league home run is just another example. I know that young teams will make mistakes. But every year the mistakes seem to increase as the season goes along, instead of decreasing. The Cardinals just killed by simply executing. We know that they have a dangerous middle of the order. But it is the other guys who really do us in. Eckstein always seems to be able to draw that walk to guarantee that Albert will bat that inning with a man on. Their #2 hitter usually advances the runner while never, I mean never, hitting into a DP in front of their sluggers. They squeeze, they throw to the right base, and they don't make silly outs on the bases. They see the big picture and look at things from a team perspective. They really understand, and buy into their roles. The Tigers under Leyland and the Cubs under Lou seem to be doing the same thing. So I would like to see us get somebody who can get our team to do the same. I would have an interest in Davey Johnson or Bobby Valentine. Would La Russa be interested in coming here after this year? I know that big name managers are afraid of going to lower-revenue teams, but we sure give them a chance to succeed right now. We have talent.

[NeedMoreFans]

Just looking at past seasons, what has Yost done to merrit a job in Milwaukee? He had one non-losing season, that's it. The Brewers are going town the tube right now, and if they keep up this pace, they may end up south of .500 again. Even if they finish with 82-85 wins, I don't see how you can justify his returning next season. Baseball may be the only sport where someone can stay a manager of a team for many seasons without winning (except for what's his name in Oakland who got canned after the ALCS last year). If he was a football or basketball coach, he would have been out after the second year.

[Ennder]

Yost doesn't tinker with his lineup more than anyone else does. He has used about the same number of lineups as other teams and less than many of them including multiple 1st place teams. Complaints like that one and the fact he rests guys too much (if anything he rests them too little) are pretty much off base. His bullpen usage is questionable for sure but not nearly as bad as people think it is since at least 50% of the complaints are pretty much off base.

 

He's not a great manager, he's not a terrible manager. I don't mind one bit if he gets fired if we miss the playoffs but don't think it will magically make us better next year. Its just as likely we get someone worse as someone better. For most fans it will just be a new name to complain about.

[Thurston Fluff]

I don't think Prince is having an MVP season. He leads the league in homeruns but he really hasn't carried the team by himself like MVP's do. He's been very good but not the best player in the league this year. Especially when you take defense into account. He certianly hasn't elevated his game in the moment of need. MVP seasons are special seasons something beyond even all star caliber seasons. Prince's season, while good, has not been elite.

I've felt all along that Ned should be able to get this team to play above .500. If he does he should stay. I think Ned is a good manager despite what fate will befall him here. I wonder how the players who've been on this team during The Kinney/Franklin years recieve the message Ned is sending now vs then. It's difficult for people to listen to one message from a person only to have that message change in the future. In the past Ned asked them to play hard and let the chips fall where they may. Now he asks more from them. Are they going to respond the same way? If they do fire Ned it would be akin to killing the messenger. Sometimes, however, that needs to happen for those receiving it understand the importance of the message.

[IslandsAC]

You don't fire him in the offseason. You fire him shortly before the 2nd half. I say ride him at the beginning of next year and cut him in June. It really sucks, but only about as bad as his teams in the 2nd half.

I really don't see this happening if the Brewers get the same (or better jump) they got to start the season this year. Did anyone talk about firing the Skip when the Brewers were up by 8-10 games?

 

Put me down for Nay. I've been an increasingly reluctant Yost apologist, but I've lost almost all allegiance to him. In my mind the manager makes very little difference one way or the other. Also, in my mind (a dangerous place to be), a team that is struggling so mightily like this, just needs some type of nudge to push them in the other direction. (Winning is as contagious as losing has been, which is why the game is so streaky.) So... If Ned's exit can be that 'nudge,' I won't shed a tear. Gotta do something, and Yost hasn't really done anything over his tenure here that screams 'gotta keep him.'

 

Dump him now.

[Brewer Fever]

Yost doesn't tinker with his lineup more than anyone else does. He has used about the same number of lineups as other teams and less than many of them including multiple 1st place teams. Complaints like that one and the fact he rests guys too much (if anything he rests them too little) are pretty much off base. His bullpen usage is questionable for sure but not nearly as bad as people think it is since at least 50% of the complaints are pretty much off base.

 

It's not that he DOES these things too much or not enough, it's the fact that these are the only things he can hang his hat on. The problem is any Tom, Richard, or Harry off the street can change a lineup or give a guy a day off. A manger worth keeping makes changes outside of the box that correct or lessen deficiencies. Good managers are innovative and come up with new ideas that are implemented and repeated by others for decades to follow. When was the last time you heard or read about something that Yost was having the players do before a game or in practice that made you stop and think, "Wow that's a pretty neat idea, maybe it will pay off. Or wow, he changed their curfew on the road, maybe they'll start playing better. Oh really, he's wearing out Rickie and Corey before games having them work on their bunting. He's got Prince working on his sliding, that's a good idea."

 

I'm not sold on Mike McCarthy but when I hear about the things he's implemented in the kicking competition I'm impressed. You have to try things, tinker with things outside of just filling out a lineup card.

 

I seem to remember when the Yost/Maddux duo first arrived, almost every new pitcher was being taught a new pitch. You don't hear much of that anymore. Hell, I'd try having the players pitch tents in a ballroom at road hotels if I thought it would shake them out of their road woes. They really can't play any worse. Maybe a night stuck sleeping in a tent would make a road game seem like a release rather than a trip to the dentist. The point is try something. Be the manager who addresses shortcomings aggressively rather than the token lineup change or saying that they're big leaguers they should already know how to do this stuff.

 

You never hear Yost supporters giving him props for a managerial tactic used or change in the way the Brewers do things. The only argument you ever hear for Yost is that he's not the one swinging that bat or he's not throwing the pitches. That's really no argument in defense of Yost at all. You could say the same thing if they rolled a corpse out there to manage the game.