Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost

[jeffy]

Your impression of what Yost thinks, doesn't make it so. As so many do, you've mischaracterized his statement entirely. If that statement is the most damning statement you could find on his love affair with the bunt, then nothing more needs to be said.

Thanks for the condescension. Guess what, I'd say it is you that is doing the mischaracterizing. Also, there just might be a reason why the reporter chose Yost as one of the prime defenders of the bunt. It's clear, to me from watching nearly every game for his tenure here and hearing the sort of things he has said, that Yost does have a love affair with the whole "small ball" game, with the bunt being just one aspect of that.

 

Anway, bunt love affair or not... FIRE YOST!

[brettac1]

After last night and sticking with Mench over PH'ing, I have moved over to the Nay camp.

 

That was just stupid. Not only is Jenkins the more likely of the two to get a hit against an RHP, but he's also the more likely to draw a walk, or even at least work the count deeper which could result in a pass ball. The only thing Mench was more likely to do was put it in play, but with two outs that's pretty much a non-issue because the only thing that matters is a non-out - and Mench sucks at not making outs.

[logan82]

I agree that 10% is huge and Jenkins would have been a more logical choice. I also believe that Jenkins would have gone deeper in the count. He would have flailed wildy at the plate missing the first pitch completly. That would have given Dempster a chance to throw a game tying wild pitch, or hit Jenkins.

All I am saying is that until we look back at the season as a whole, it is a little silly, at this point, to say we should fire the manager. There is still plenty of time to win our division. It just seems that people expect us to win the division when at the start of the year 82-85 wins and a 2nd place finish would have been acceptable. Let's face it, we were not really ever a realistic division winner. Our pitching has way undrperformed, and should be drawing most of our criticsm. Ben Sheets is WAY more important to us than we originally thought.

Talk to me again at the end of the season if we continue to play like we have been and I will be on board with firing the manager. I still believe that a manager isn't worth more much in the W/L column. Unless he starts trotting Cordero out from the 5th inning on in high leverage situations or going with something other than a traditional lineup I don't believe that there is much difference between managers.

[TooLiveBrew]

Your logic is getting just plain weird. To criticize a manager who doesn't learn from or admit mistakes, and routinely costs the team chances to win, is totally right-on. Ok, if his subs were to play the better matchups routinely, and then the team fails, you're right - blaming him is stupid. But I can't believe you still continue to choose to ignore the obvious, objective track record Ned has sadly developed. Even discounting the Mench non-ph as a 'wash', there are plenty more from which to choose. This costs this team games, plain & simple - just like poor pitching has, too. If those pitchers are demoted/DL'd/punished, why does the manager get a free pass? That makes no sense, especially since your argument is essentially that Ned isn't hurting the team seriously enough to merit concern. Which is - objectively - not true.

 

How you even suggest a team that's 1.5 games back, with a win tonight - one game, isn't a division contender is just plain wrong. I don't want to tick you off, but you have some serious pessimism clouding your judgment of this team right now. With a win v. Pit tonight, we're one game back of the Cubs, who just got man-handled by the Astros today, and will trot out Marquis tomorrow v. Houston, winners of their last two games (& 3 of 4). Where in the world are we not contenders? We face Pitt., losers of their last 2 (& 3 of 5), tonight. While I know our play of late has been putrid, to say we're not contenders is just plain silly. Had the ChC series been in Milwaukee, we well could have taken the two of three. 1 of 3 on the road against a good team is nothing to get all upset about.

 

EDIT: was responding to logan...not sure if Brett thought I was resp. to him...

[brettac1]

I didn't come to my conclusion after that one move. It has been a series of moves for me. I actually have usually supported him or been indifferent (even in this very thread), because I agree that outside of a couple managers there isn't really any difference between them.

[Fatter than Joey]

Mench swinging at the first pitch after Dumpster walked in a run???? That's less defensible to me.

 

We all knew that was going to happen ---Yost should have an idea as well.

 

The use of Mench like that has likely cost the Brewers at least one win.

 

The use of Mench and other platoon goons this year and last have cost us a lot more than one game.

[Fatter than Joey]

Substituting Jenkins for Mench changes your odds for success from 24.6% to 33.4%. Looking at it that way you only change the odds by just under 10%.

 

Wow.. Actually Jenkins is 37% better than Mench -- what you are saying would be equivalent to saying that "a .400 hitter is only 10% better than a .300 hitter", it's just wrong.

 

There is still plenty of time to win our division.

 

No there isn't.

 

It just seems that people expect us to win the division when at the start of the year 82-85 wins and a 2nd place finish would have been acceptable.

 

I don't think this level of play, for this extended period of time is acceptable to anyone. We are playing Devil Ray baseball these last months.

 

I don't believe that there is much difference between managers.

 

So why do you care if Yost gets fired?

 

I would agree that it is hard to ascertain a manager's impact, but we shouldn't count the managers impact as trivial. It's like saying that the "1970s only produced 2 HOF 3bs, and all the rest are interchangeable". There were 2 HOFers, there were some guys like Nettles, Cey that were very good -- there were some average ones like Roy Howell and some crap. Managers are like every position -- there are varying degrees of impact. Ask Marlin fans what sort of impact Giardi is having on their team this year even though he is no longer with them.

[gregmag]

I have a hard time getting worked up about Yost one way or the other. Clearly he makes a lot of strategic mistakes. On the other hand, I think he does some important things very well -- like protecting his starting pitchers from preventable injuries -- that don't get noticed as much because they're regular things that don't stand out. FTJ, I think you're overstating our ability to assess managers' impact. Your 3B analogy is about degrees of difference; the issue with managers is more availability of useful metrics. Even as to degrees of difference, I tend to think managers have a relatively limited ability to influence wins and losses over a season, but I know for sure we don't have very good metrics for figuring out managers' impact.

 

Having said all that, I think Yost should be fired if the Brewers don't win the division. He has presided over a train wreck. Whether or not it's his fault, new leadership gets the stench out of the locker room. It's a reset; it gives everybody a new start with a new boss, and hopefully the new guy learns from Ned's experience while also seeing some new things about how to use and motivate his players. It's a marginal move, and it isn't necessarily fair. But Ned has been here a while -- changes in leadership become inherently useful at some point, and that point arrives more quickly when the leader, for whatever reason, fails to avert a disaster. Sometimes I think a manager can energize his team more by leaving than by anything else he could do. Of course, there's no metric for that either . . .

 

Greg.

[logan82]

I just see a manager who has had his pitchers routinley let him down over the course of the season. I think this gets blown over if the team has 4 more wins now. I still lay this season on pitching the last month and a half.

[Fatter than Joey]

On the other hand, I think he does some important things very well -- like protecting his starting pitchers from preventable injuries

 

I am not sure Yost is aware he has the ability/option to ruin pitchers arms http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

FTJ, I think you're overstating our ability to assess managers' impact.

 

It seems to me, that we agree here. I don't think we can assess a manager's impact very effectively/accurately -- but that doesn't mean that a manager doesn't have an impact.

 

Your 3B analogy is about degrees of difference; the issue with managers is more availability of useful metrics

 

Well -- that is the point that I was trying to make. I very much disagree with the concept that you have 2-3 great managers, and then all the rest are interchangeable, and it is a waste of time to upgrade them.

 

I would agree, that like with third-baseman (in the 70s) only a couple of managers may be able to make an absolute (or the largest) impact on their team.

 

If you have Antone Williamson as your 3b, and Roy Howell comes along, you should upgrade him. If you have Roy Howell and Don Money comes along, you should upgrade him.

 

While the Brewers are probably not going to get that Schmidt/Brett level of manager when the firey Yost -- I remain very confident that the Brewers will be able to upgrade the manager position rather easily.

 

I tend to think managers have a relatively limited ability to influence wins and losses over a season

 

Especially when their are short term effects like bunt/H&R and long term effect like burning up a young pitcher -- or burying a rookie on the bench and not letting them get ABs in order to develop.

 

but I know for sure we don't have very good metrics for figuring out managers' impact.

 

Agreed 100% -- but we should say that "we don't have a good metric" -- rather than "all manager are interchangeable, save for a couple"

[jlau20]

Yay as far as Ned leaving Gallardo in, that was huge and he was in a tough spot, take him out and blow the lead he gets hated on and leave him in and blow the lead and he gets hated on. He left him in and Yo got out of it. Kudos to Ned for leaving in our best option at that point, seeing the problems our bullpen has in the 7th, and kudos to Yo for those huge huge huge K's.

 

Nay for the season on the whole though.

[DougJones43]

Yay as far as Ned leaving Gallardo in, that was huge and he was in a tough spot, take him out and blow the lead he gets hated on and leave him in and blow the lead and he gets hated on. He left him in and Yo got out of it. Kudos to Ned for leaving in our best option at that point, seeing the problems our bullpen has in the 7th, and kudos to Yo for those huge huge huge K's.

Yeah. I originally disagreed with the move in the IGT, because watching Yo pitch in late inning, high stress jams makes me nervous. I worry about the toll such things take on his young arm, but this is the middle of a pennant chase (an ugly pennant chase, but a pennant chase nevertheless). His pitch count wasn't extremely high, and while pushing him like that probably isn't good for his arm, it probably isn't going to ruin it either. You pretty much have to pull out all the stops to win every game at this point, so I was wrong and Ned was probably right. Big win tonight, and it might not have happened if Yo was pulled like I wanted.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

While I'm still steaming about the Mench thing...I pose this question: Has Yost lost this team? As much as I disagree with many of his moves, he seems to have the clubhouse relatively intact. I will give him that. Anyone else want to weigh in?

[DougJones43]

While I'm still steaming about the Mench thing...I pose this question: Has Yost lost this team? As much as I disagree with many of his moves, he seems to have the clubhouse relatively intact. I will give him that. Anyone else want to weigh in?

 

I've never really been sure what constitutes "losing a team." Does it mean the players stop trying? Because I don't think that ever happens. I don't think players ever really play on behalf of their manager anyway. These guys play for themselves: for their own pride, image, money, stats, legacy, etc. Do people really think that players would jeopardize their own careers because they disagree with a manger, or don't like him?

[T B0NE 10]

i'd say losing a team means the team losing respect for the manager

[DougJones43]

i'd say losing a team means the team losing respect for the manager

Okay. In that case, I guess I still fail to see how it would affect the players' and/or team's performance on the field. Again, I don't think they would give a lesser effort, because of the negative consequences it would have on themselves. I certainly don't think the Brewers struggles are from guys "tanking it" after losing respect for Ned. Would somebody like Capuano be pitching better if he had a manager he "respected" more? Probably not. Maybe a better coaching staff would have been able to help him get back on track in some way, but I doubt respect (or lack there of) plays any part in it.

 

In fact, I'm pretty sure players don't care one way or the other about their manager as much as people might think. Certainly not enough to let it affect their own individual effort or performance.

[logan82]

While I'm still steaming about the Mench thing...I pose this question: Has Yost lost this team? As much as I disagree with many of his moves, he seems to have the clubhouse relatively intact. I will give him that. Anyone else want to weigh in?

 

I have to think that we would hear something out of one of the players if there were any problems in the clubhouse. I can see players putting aside their egos if the team is in first and playing well, but neither is the case now.

[lukevan]

I guess I would say that "losing a team" would be when the players start tuning out the manager in certain instances. I'd say if Ned tells a player to "shorten up" against a certain pitcher and you can tell the player is swinging for the fences, that's one symptom of losing a team, though it doesn't mean that it's necessarily the case. I don't think Ned has lost the team, however.

 

Bonus points for Yost last night, leaving Yovani in the game in the 7th. I'm still leaning about 60% nay, 40% yay.

[RightFieldCoder]

Last night when Yost was introduced there was a small amount of boo-ing at The Keg. At least it was audible in the bleachers.

[brewcrewnation]

nay

[sheethead]

I'm still NAY (it will take a lot for me to forget about the Mench AB on 8/30), however I did like the stones Ned displayed by leaving the rook in there with one out in the 7th.

[jason21nl]

sheethead[/b]]I'm still NAY (it will take a lot for me to forget about the Mench AB on 8/30), however I did like the stones Ned displayed by leaving the rook in there with one out in the 7th.

 

I don't know if its me really hating ned, that I have to find ways to blame him or what, but in the situation last night, I really don't think he had a choice but to leave him out there. I say this because after the first couple guys got on, there was nobody warming up until I think he got McClung up. He was trying to get ready fast, but I don't think he was ready to come in to face anyone yet. Ned might have spun it by saying he was going to leave Yo in no mater what, but I don't believe it. I think Ned put himself in a bad situation and Yo bailed him out of it. That and I would have had Shouse up just in case, to face Mclouth. It worked out in Neds favor this time and the Brewers went on to win. I'll take it. Just wish he had someone up in the Pen sooner than he did.

[windiv07]

I don't know if its me really hating ned,

Ned might have spun it by saying he was going to leave Yo in no mater what' date=' but I don't believe it. I think Ned put himself in a bad situation and Yo bailed him out of it. That and I would have had Shouse up just in case, to face Mclouth. It worked out in Neds favor this time and the Brewers went on to win. I'll take it. Just wish he had someone up in the Pen sooner than he did.[/quote'] I don't hate Ned, either. We fans don't know what is going on between the dugout and the pen with middle-relief pitchers being tardy getting up and ready (and I don't think anyone but Maddux, Castro and/or Yost could really tell us for certain), but this has happened frequently since the All Star break mostly with disastrous results because a pitcher was left in too long. Yours is an entirely reasonable appraisal. I too think we dodged the bullet last night and there is a clear pattern of blown leads from tardy relief and leaving pitchers in until it is too late.

 

Recently this happened in the 7th (when Soup was pulled last time...prematurely IMO), Linebrink clearly did not have his stuff and gave up 3 conscecutive singles deep in the count to the first two hitters yet nobody was up and throwing until 3 runs were scored on him after that.

 

I do not see a downside to having relievers ready to go just in case. Yet this has not happened with the Brewers in the last two months. Losing games for the sake of saving up the pen for the future seems to me to be a self-destructive strategy (the July/August W-L record bears this out) and it is this (more than anything else) to which I take exception under the Yost roster-management model.

[jeffy]

The fact that Yost got lucky, does not change the fact that this was another failure on his part. No one was ready, he should have had both a right hander and left hander warming up and ready to come in before Yo threw one pitch in the 7th. There is no excuse for not doing this, especially since he knew that he would have additional pitchers the next day due to Sept. call-ups and in addition, they supposedly do not want to over use Yo.

[TooLiveBrew]

While I'm on the fence on this most recent critique - though I think not much is hurt in having guys readys - I can honestly say it's about time one of our starters bailed Ned out. Though I obviously have severe concerns about Yost's decison-making, it was nice to see him not become a goat yet again. Well done, YoGa!