Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost

[jlau20]

Not even the punter, more like the holder.

[AJAY]

From Tom Haudricourt's blog . . .

 

Yost went down with Mench

By Tom Haudricourt

Thursday, Aug 30 2007, 11:39 PM

 

Chicago - Manager Ned Yost doesn't start outfielder Kevin Mench against right-handed pitchers because he doesn't hit them very well. The right-handed hitter was batting .215 this season against righties entering play Thursday night.

 

Yet, Yost allowed Mench to hit against a right-handed pitcher with the Brewers' biggest game of the year on the line in the ninth inning. Mench bounced out against Cubs closer Ryan Dempster on the first pitch he saw with the bases loaded and the Brewers lost a game they couldn't afford to lose.

 

Sitting on the bench, available to hit, was Geoff Jenkins, who is batting .271 against righties this season. Yost said he didn't turn to Jenkins because his career numbers (4 for 17) against Dempster were not compelling enough.

 

Yost makes a lot of his in-game moves based primarily on the career numbers of hitter/pitcher match-ups. Why Mench's .215 average against right-handers didn't supercede Jenkins' luke-warm numbers against Dempster, only Yost knows.

 

But the fact remains that Yost doesn't start Mench against righties but he still allowed him to hit against one with the biggest game of the year in the balance. What do you think?

[TooLiveBrew]

I think that when Tom Haudricourt is actually smarter than Ned Yost, the powers that be need 0% more signs to cut their losses with Yost

[YedNost]

Joe Dillon is a better hitter than Mench for so many reasons.

 

First of all, he's smarter. Everyone saw it tonight, Dillon goes up there leading off the 9th, he's completely aware of the situation. This was one of the biggest moments of the year and we needed someone to get us started, and he knew that! He worked the count until he got a pitch he liked and crushed it for the double. And then Mench comes up in possibly the biggest spot of the year and what does he do? He swings at the first pitch from Ryan Dempster who just hit Weeks and walked a run in.

 

Second of all, Dillon's bat is much quicker, his swing shorter and more compact. He takes a short stride and lets it fly. Mench's swing is long and drawn out which makes it much tougher for him to reach balls on the outer half of the plate.

 

I could go on and on, but in his short time up here, Dillon has proven to be a much better hitter than Mench. It seems every ball he hits is on a rope, sometimes it gets caught and sometimes it doesn't.

[thablingster]

I liked Ned Yost in the fact he saved me from Davey Lopes and Jerry Royster.

 

Ned is a good manager of guys who don't have much talent/confidence because he sticks with them and tries to instill confidence in them. Ned is not a good manager of a team with talent because he continues to stick with the guys who don't have much talent/confidence and tries to continue to instill confidence in them even though he probably has a better option somewhere.

 

We're at the point now where hurting feelings and building confidence isn't what's important. Wins are important. To use tonight's game as an example, Jenkins is the guy you want there statistically in the 9th. If he makes an out, fine, but he's the guy you want. If Ned didn't like to do those sorts of things ever that's one thing, but he did it an inning earlier with Gross for Hall, so he has no excuse. "What about extra innings?" Jenkins-Gross-Hart in the outfield, if someone gets hurt throw Dave Bush out in left field. I'm sure Craig Counsell could do it. The thing about extra innings is you have to get there.

 

I guess the point of my post is I'm going nay on Yost. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[1992casey]

Tom Haudricourt wrote:

---

Sitting on the bench, available to hit, was Geoff Jenkins, who is batting .271 against righties this season. Yost said he didn't turn to Jenkins because his career numbers (4 for 17) against Dempster were not compelling enough.

Bad sample, tiny sample, wrong sample... take your pick.

 

Had Ned said that Jenkins' general hitting history didn't match up to Dempster's pitch repertoire or something like that... maybe. But basing this decision on 4 for 17? The phase of the moon could have caused 4 for 17.

[afeter]

if only jenkins was 5-17 .294 ned would have had to have been compelled to hit him

[jlau20]

I liked Ned Yost in the fact he saved me from Davey Lopes and Jerry Royster.

 

Ned is a good manager of guys who don't have much talent/confidence because he sticks with them and tries to instill confidence in them. Ned is not a good manager of a team with talent because he continues to stick with the guys who don't have much talent/confidence and tries to continue to instill confidence in them even though he probably has a better option somewhere.

This is somewhat along the lines of what I make of Yost. He seems like he might be the type of manager that can take a team from being a loser to being mediocre. In this case, he had junk when he got here, then got some young talent from our minor league system a few years later that was drafted roughly when he started managing. He got those guys to play .500 ball (one year) and last year with injuries were a few wins short of being .500. Maybe he just isn't the type of manager that can take guys from average to great. I don't know who would be that we could bring in, but at this point it's worth trying something new. Talent wise we aren't capable of winning 100 games like our 24-10 start had us hoping, but we definitely shouldn't be an under .500 club. Sure, alot of it is on the players shoulders, guys not executing, etc. but at some point you have to think a change of manager could help with something.

 

[logan82]

I support Yost. He is the manager and I will not say he should be fired until after the season is done. I am not going to go game to game to make my decisions on wether or not I think he should be manager. After the season I will decide, but until then I like Yost

[TooLiveBrew]

logan, don't take this personally, but that's exactly the type of logic that's costing this team wins right now. You don't have to agree with every criticism of Yost - in fact, many of the complaints in this thread have little or nothing to do with Yost. But look objectively at the matchups Yost creates - or in some cases, chooses to not create. It's not just this game, or even this week, month, or year. I stood up & defended Yost for a long time, but have gradually come to the realization that he has a terrible weakness of not putting the team in the best position to win.

 

I believe that the bunt was the correct play. That set the team up for where a single ties the game. That is a shining example of a correct move, IMO. Your 3 & 4 hitters up next, lookin' fine. While some don't agree with that strategy, at worst you can't call it a glaring mistake. The fact that Braun will chase a pitch in & get jammed, resulting in no runs, is nowhere near Ned's fault. If anything, he needs credit for keeping his team out of what would have been almost a certain double-play. The IBB to Fielder can be called Ned's 'fault', but that put the go-ahead run on 1B.

 

Corey Hart turned in a great at-bat. This was not to Yost's credit, except for that his choice to bat Hart behind Fielder came into play, which may make some credit him - and I can admit is his responsibility. I for one wouldn't have criticized him if Hart was retired, but I can't speak for all.

 

Then, with Mench coming up, Ned played a hunch that is supported by zero statistical data or facts. When faced with a choice, he made the choice to put the Brewers in the worse of two positions. Had Jenkins come to the plate, and failed to get aboard, at least you give your team the best chance available. You manage the game situation as best you can, then it's up to the players. My problem with Yost is that he continues to decline the option to put the Brewers in the best situation to win available to him.

 

A manager's impact, on average, is quite minimal, because it comes down to player execution. It may be minimal, however, I want a manager that opts for the best chance for his team to win, not one that routinely chooses to hope that a poorer choice pays off.

[Oldcity]

I haven't had a huge problem with Yost in the past. Not a big fan, but not a huge detractor. However, the Mench over Jenkins thing is just comlpetely indefensible. To be honest, I don't want someone who doesn't know that managing the team I pull for.

[bobskube]

It is very late guys tonight to be fighting the game.

 

I am the guy that always blames Yost for the lost and I still blame him tonight for not giving us the best chance to win.

 

JENKINS (who sucks) should have batted for (Mench) who sucks to fourth degree.

[RU Rah Rah]

I think I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to go beyond being just blandly resigned to Ned's incompetence. The Mench/Jenkins thing actually has me angry about how bad he is, has been, and always will be.

 

(I should also add that I'm not exactly thrilled with Mench, either. It was clearly a "make him throw a strike" situation, and he went up there hacking, like many of the Brewers seem to do. Actually, though, it was not unexpected, given his number of BB's all season -- yet another reason not to bat him there.)

 

It also rankles me that he didn't give the home plate umpire an earful after Corey got called out on strikes on a pitch that was so far out of the strike zone that it would have hit a left-handed batter. I'm not saying that he should have gone Earl Weaver on the guy (although maybe that's precisely what the team needs?), but he has to get in his face in that situation.

[Bruce Ciskie]

If Yost doesn't want to manage the team, I'm sure there are others who would be interested.

[Postseason2006]

Should've been last year but 90 % of the posters disagreed. Ned is NOT a leader.

[sheethead]

That is another great point, he isn't a leader. He is not cut out for the job. I keep waiting for the announcement.

 

I don't like the George Steinbrenner types, but one thing about them I do like is an intolerance for incompetence. Ned Yost showed last night (again) that he cannot make two good decisions in a row. This manager needed to make two good decisions in a row (both "no-brainers") and couldn't seem to do it. The dude should have been fired on the spot, period.

 

Maybe Ned Yost and George W look so much alike because they share a brain. That would explain a lot.

[jeffy]

I believe that the bunt was the correct play. That set the team up for where a single ties the game. That is a shining example of a correct move, IMO.

I disagree, and I hate Yost's desire to bunt whenever possible...but once you decide to go for a tie at least be consistent and keep going for the tie. To me that would have meant putting Counsel in as pinch hitter for Mench. Of couse going for the win would have meant batting Jenkins, imo. Not sure what batting Mench was other than a player development move or going for a loss.

 

As someone else posted, Yost seems to have been fine as a player development guy, but he does not seem to have what it takes to win. How about Garner for interim manager for the last month http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif.

[Ennder]

If we were to find out Yost had money on the Cubs winning the series I would not be surprised based on how he managed it... that is unacceptable.

 

The bunt call can go either way but I'm pretty sure it lowered our odds of winning the game and it may or may not have raised our odds tying up the game, remember Braun only gets OBP about 32% of the time vs righties so 68% of the time what happened last night happens, Braun out and Fielder BB'd. The bunt gives you 95%+ chance at an out to avoid the 20% chance of a GIDP and 2 outs, thats not a very good trade when you are down by 2 runs with only 3 outs left, not in my book.

[JohnBriggs12]

Last night Yost showed another of his inadequacies.

 

Great managers see the big picture while they manage a game. The situation in the 9th inning, was not only the key point in a season, it was a key moment in the history of the Brewer franchise. That Yost was pondering minisclule stat samples shows how lacking he is.

 

 

Geoff Jenkins has been a Brewer for a decade. Although his detractors will point out that yes, he's struck out many times in big situations, he's also come through big time especially this year.

 

Let's get the stats out of the way. Jenkins was 4 for 17 vs. Dempster (actually Yahoo sports has him 4 for 18) . Not exciting but not terrible against a closer. But he also walked 4 times, and of his 4 hits, 2 were doubles and one was a HR and he drove in 5 runs. His OPS vs. Dempster? .864. Pretty much his career number.

 

Yost also used the excuse that Jenkins would have been cold off the bench and Mench was "in the game".

 

Jenkins has been just fine pinch hitting (2 for 8 with 4 BB). That's right, an OBP of .500 for Geoff as a PH in 2007. So much for cold off the bench.

 

Here's the killer stat that Yost ignored: Late innings of close games:

 

Mench: 4 for 26 (.154), ZERO BB, .154 OBP., 1 RBI

 

Jenkins: 12 for 37 (.324), 5 BB, .409 OBP., 2 RBI.

 

So with the tying run a walk or a hit away from scoring in the 9th inning of the most crucial game in 25 years of a franchise, Yost opted for a right hander who he doesn't start against right handers and who is nothing more than a footnote in Brewer annals, and who reaches base safely less than 20 % of the time in close games later when he could of sent up lifetime Brewer Jenkins, who based on stats had a 40 % shot at reaching safely and at least tying the game.

 

That my friends alone, forgetting all the previous dumb moves, is enough for Yost to be fired.

[RU Rah Rah]

Mench: 4 for 26 (.154), ZERO BB, .154 OBP., 1 RBI

That's part of what bugged me about the situation -- even though Dempster was wild, you pretty much knew that Mench was going to swing at the first pitch that was anywhere even remotely close to the strike zone. If you're going to run him up there, you have to at least remind him to be patient.

 

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

logan, don't take this personally, but that's exactly the type of logic that's costing this team wins right now. You don't have to agree with every criticism of Yost - in fact, many of the complaints in this thread have little or nothing to do with Yost. But look objectively at the matchups Yost creates - or in some cases, chooses to not create. It's not just this game, or even this week, month, or year. I stood up & defended Yost for a long time, but have gradually come to the realization that he has a terrible weakness of not putting the team in the best position to win.

 

I believe that the bunt was the correct play. That set the team up for where a single ties the game. That is a shining example of a correct move, IMO. Your 3 & 4 hitters up next, lookin' fine. While some don't agree with that strategy, at worst you can't call it a glaring mistake. The fact that Braun will chase a pitch in & get jammed, resulting in no runs, is nowhere near Ned's fault. If anything, he needs credit for keeping his team out of what would have been almost a certain double-play. The IBB to Fielder can be called Ned's 'fault', but that put the go-ahead run on 1B.

 

Corey Hart turned in a great at-bat. This was not to Yost's credit, except for that his choice to bat Hart behind Fielder came into play, which may make some credit him - and I can admit is his responsibility. I for one wouldn't have criticized him if Hart was retired, but I can't speak for all.

 

Then, with Mench coming up, Ned played a hunch that is supported by zero statistical data or facts. When faced with a choice, he made the choice to put the Brewers in the worse of two positions. Had Jenkins come to the plate, and failed to get aboard, at least you give your team the best chance available. You manage the game situation as best you can, then it's up to the players. My problem with Yost is that he continues to decline the option to put the Brewers in the best situation to win available to him.

 

A manager's impact, on average, is quite minimal, because it comes down to player execution. It may be minimal, however, I want a manager that opts for the best chance for his team to win, not one that routinely chooses to hope that a poorer choice pays off.

 

Excellent post. While I will continue to support Ned for the remainder of the season...I breathe, therefore I am a homer Brewer Fan. But, he has collapsed under the spotlight this year as has his team. He has no consistency. He goes back and forth between the odds and his guts. If he was consistent, we'd know what we're getting. After all the moves the guy makes, not to PH for Mench last night was simply shocking. Ned...you had me, then you lost me. I'll always love you for that homer against the Sox in '82, but alas it is time to say goodbye.

[Bucky Rules]

Then, with Mench coming up, Ned played a hunch that is supported by zero statistical data or facts.

That's not entirely true. Jenkins success against Dumpster in his career was far from overwhelming - although, in a vacuum certainly I'd take my chances with Jenkins over Mench. But, throw in the fact that Jenkins is coming off the bench cold, and he is 2 for his last 22... I think the decision is defensible.

 

Mench swinging at the first pitch after Dumpster walked in a run???? That's less defensible to me. Especially when the end result is a weak ground ball. If he smoked it somewhere, I guess I could've lived with ending the game on the first pitch.

[Ennder]

Then, with Mench coming up, Ned played a hunch that is supported by zero statistical data or facts.

That's not entirely true. Jenkins success against Dumpster in his career was far from overwhelming - although, in a vacuum certainly I'd take my chances with Jenkins over Mench. But, throw in the fact that Jenkins is coming off the bench cold, and he is 2 for his last 22... I think the decision is defensible.

 

Mench swinging at the first pitch after Dumpster walked in a run???? That's less defensible to me. Especially when the end result is a weak ground ball. If he smoked it somewhere, I guess I could've lived with ending the game on the first pitch.

 

He doesn't have a bad history against Dempster though, he has a career .864 OPS against him. Also you can't look at the last 22 AB's to judge a situation, Mench being left in there is completely indefensible. My 8 year old would have made the correct move there but Yost for whatever reason likes to go against logic. I was in a room with 20 people when Mench came up and every single one of them boo'd the move because it was just idiotic.

[PrimeTime955]

Haven't commented on the Yost situation because for most of his tenure I gave him the benefit of the doubt mostly to lack of talent issues. As time went on I became more and more tired of the managerial moves or lack there of that Yost produced. Last night, in arguably the biggest game since about the 1982 World Series, Ned Yost lets the worst righty-righty hitter in the league Kevin Mench hit against Dempster. This team will not make the playoffs with Ned Yost leading them. If they do make the playoffs it will be in spite of having him, not because of him. Ned doesn't deserve to piss away the next 5 years of the HUGE Brewers future. I'm officially jumping the fence. FIRE NED YOST.

[logan82]

I am not saying that he made the right move last night. Just that maybe this isn't as big of a deal if our pitching isn't the worst in the NL since the all star break. Then we aren't down 1.5 games going into this series and nobody is as upset with the loses. I still blame the starters and bullpen for putting us in this situation in the first palce. These guys were supposed to be one of the best in all of baseball, but up to this point have been even worse than last years parade of crap.

Mench is paid to be a professional hitter. Where was he for the rest of the inning when Dempster was demonstrating that he had no control?