Outfield Possibilities

[JohnBriggs12]

If the Mariners pick up Guillen's option, then perhaps Ibanez could be pried away for some pitching as the Mariners are really thin in starting pitching and they will want to open up a spot for top prospect Jones. Ibanez has basically done what the Brewers wished they could have gotten out of Jenkins the last two seasons for less money and he's only signed through 2008.

 

I would think a package that included a starter (Capuano, Bush or Vargas) and an OF (Mench, Gross, or Gwynn) for Ibanez might interest the Mariners.

[endaround]

Ibanez is going to be 36. Giving anything of value up for him makes little sense. Jackson for Ibanez should be enough.

[JohnBriggs12]

"Ibanez is going to be 36...Jackson for Ibanez should be enough".

 

Ibanez over the past two seasons: 308 games played, 1,199 AB's, 348 Hits, 68 doubles, 10 triples, 54 HR, 228 RBI, a .290 BA, a .499 slugging percentage, and a .352 OBP.

 

What in those numbers endaround suggest he's slowed down as a player yet? The Mariners aren't going to give a guy like that away even though they want to find a spot for Jones.

 

Besides he's only signed through 2008 at a very reasonable $5.5 million. Even if he slips a little (he won't turn 36 until next June) he's likely to match the LF platoon the Brewers used in 2007 for considerably less money especially if salary is returned. Ibanez is the perfect "caretaker" productive bat the Brewers could use for one year.

[MoneyballMan]

One wild-card that I have liked the past several years: J.R. House. House has tore up the upper levels of the minors the past two years since returning to baseball, and was called up to take a place on the Orioles roster late this past year. If the O's are smart they will find super-utility role for House, as he is a better fit in the AL switching between 1B, C and DH (kind of like Matt LeCroy). He hit LHPs very well this past year at AAA, and if the Orioles end up releasing House I would jump all over the opportunity to add this guy and give him a chance based on his bat.

 

I agree. I've tracked him for several years myself and could be an intersting addition. Probably for C more than OF, but at least he could fill in in the OF and 1B (on those few days that Prince needs a blow). Just not sure Baltimore is going to give up on him now that he's back (from injury and football).

[MoneyballMan]

Earlier this season I floated another possibility for the OF - Ryan Klesko. I know he primarily played 1B this year, but he could still cover the corner OF spots (not everyday, but as the 4th or 5th OF) and spell Prince at 1B. A much more cost-effective alternative to Jenkins. And probably solid veteran leadership.

[endaround]

"Ibanez is going to be 36...Jackson for Ibanez should be enough".

 

Ibanez over the past two seasons: 308 games played, 1,199 AB's, 348 Hits, 68 doubles, 10 triples, 54 HR, 228 RBI, a .290 BA, a .499 slugging percentage, and a .352 OBP.

 

What in those numbers endaround suggest he's slowed down as a player yet? The Mariners aren't going to give a guy like that away even though they want to find a spot for Jones.

 

Besides he's only signed through 2008 at a very reasonable $5.5 million. Even if he slips a little (he won't turn 36 until next June) he's likely to match the LF platoon the Brewers used in 2007 for considerably less money especially if salary is returned. Ibanez is the perfect "caretaker" productive bat the Brewers could use for one year.

And for this caretaker bat that will produce on par with a Gross platoon you want to give up a starting pitcher and another player.

 

[And That]

I'll add Wily Mo Pena to the list. Pena is a right handed hitter, and his splits this year against LHP were pretty good - a 913 OPS in a limited 124 PA. They also have a number of relievers that could be helpful to us. The Nationals need a bunch of help on offense, so I'm not sure who willing they'd be to part with Pena, but he's worth a look. He's also a FA at the end of next year, and is still will only be 26 next year.

[sbrylski]

Pena is an out machine, though he definately makes the most of his hits. Not the greatest on defense either.

[And That]

Pena seems to take more walks against lefties, and going back a few years, seems to hit them pretty well in general if you don't mind the strikeout baggage he comes with. I wouldn't be terribly worried about his defense in left field, and he's getting in the area of his career where he might have his big season. I'd be more into one of their relievers, but if they could pry Pena away also to platoon with Gross, I wouldn't complain.

[endaround]

The problem of course is that after the Cincy deal Washington expects immediate starters back in trades. Gwynn would actually be useful in in their current park, who knows about their new park.

[pogokat]

I've liked Pena forever, but he brings a skill set that doesn't help the Brewers...this team needs OBP...even if that means not taking on what seems like a better player. Taking a small hit in slugging will not affect the team as much as adding OBP...the brewers only have one spot in the starting lineup that's likely to be open this offseason, and they really need to not squander this opportunity

[bigredrobbo]

With Carl Crawford being a FA at the end of 2008, here's what I'd love to see.

 

Crawford to Brewers, Gwynn, LaPorta and Vargas to Devil Rays.

 

I'd take an outfield of Crawford, Hall and Hart for the forseeable future.

[And That]

With Carl Crawford being a FA at the end of 2008, here's what I'd love to see.

 

Crawford to Brewers, Gwynn, LaPorta and Vargas to Devil Rays.

 

I'd take an outfield of Crawford, Hall and Hart for the forseeable future.

Someone has stepped into my Carl Crawford trap!

I hands down would not trade LaPorta for him (mainly because they couldn't until July), but the D-Rays are terribly short on pitching. Unfortunately, we traded Inman, Garrison and Thatcher for almost nothing, so we can't trade them, but I think Turnbow, Wise, Vargas and Bush would all have value to the D-Rays. Even Parra or Jeffress if need be, plus Bray, ZachJack or Hammond.

[JohnBriggs12]

"And for this caretaker bat that will produce on par with Gross platoon...."

 

Endaround, Gross has never put up the kind of numbers Ibanez has and Ibanez plays against both lefthanders and righthanders. That's not to say it's impossible for him to do it, but at age 28 I don't like his chances of suddenly blossoming into a .290 hitter with 100 RBI. Gross can still be a useful bench bat, and he might be good enough to start somewhere but not on a team with championship aspirations.

 

I think the playing time Gross got in August and September was his trial and after a fast start, he faded badly and eventually found his way back to the bench. As I stated in my initial post, had Jenkins performed to the level Ibanez did this year, they would bring Jenkins back even at the $9 million, because Gross just didn't do enough to convince them or me that he's the guy.

[MNBrew]

And for this caretaker bat that will produce on par with a Gross platoon you want to give up a starting pitcher and another player.

End, I'm finding myself buying into JohnBriggs12's logic here.

Maybe I missed something, but Raul Ibanez's BA, power numbers, etc., are on par with Corey Hart's, and his RBIs are on par with Prince Fielder's. If that guy's playing in NY, Chi, or especially Boston, they're lobbying for him to be an All-Star or even MVP candidate. That's dang solid if not upper eschelon (though not elite) production. I'm not sure you can consider that production realistic coming from a Gabe Gross platoon -- especially not the RBIs.

If they'd take Jackson or Vargas and maybe Jenkins (they've allegedly pursued him before and he's from there) or Mench or some other "chip," that 2-for-1 is worth considering. Turnbow & Vargas for Ibanez? Even Turnbow & Jenkins, although they'd probably need to pony up for some of the salary discrepancy.

The sad thing about the Brewers' offense is that most of the glitzy or solid production came from the younger players. It was the guys who've played 4 or 5 years or more whose offense was especially neutral or negative (Counsell, Mench, Jenkins, Graffanino, Estrada, Miller). Those vets can have all the character and leadership, but at some point you have to produce, which for the most part they didn't. For that reason I'm wholly on board with the Raul Ibanez idea.

[endaround]

With Carl Crawford being a FA at the end of 2008, here's what I'd love to see.

 

Crawford to Brewers, Gwynn, LaPorta and Vargas to Devil Rays.

 

I'd take an outfield of Crawford, Hall and Hart for the forseeable future.

Crawford is not a free agent next year. As previously stated he has a team option for 2009 and another for 2010 at $8.25m and $10 m respectively. So thats three years of cheap production of an "All-Star". It will take Bush, LaPorta, and Yo/Parra to make the DRays do something.

 

 

 

John Briggs, in 2004 Gross hit .294 in AAA, in 2005 he hit .297 in AAA, in 2006 he hit .274 in MLB. He's not a .235 hitter so this years stats are just meaningless as a baseline.

 

[colbyjack]

Someone has stepped into my Carl Crawford trap!

 

Man, Carl Crawford has been brought up more often on this forum than Manny Ramirez http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif.

 

Crawford has club options for both the 2009 and 2010 seasons, and I'm betting $8.25M and $10M will seem like peanuts compared to what this guy is going to command on the FA market (I'm guessing Beltran money), regardless if you think he is overrated or not because of his speed. Plus, the D-Rays payroll this year was below $30 million, with few players really on the brink of tipping the scales that would force the D-Rays to feel as though they had to trade Crawford.

 

You're still being way too optimistic what you think can make a Crawford trade happen. I really really really would like to see you be right though, as that would be an amazing fleecing.

 

Ick to Pena. Pogo reiterated what I've been saying, improving one of the team's OF spots is the chance for the Brewers to truly get better for 2008. It either has to be a very good everyday player, or the perfect platoon option.

[MNBrew]

You'd have to offer your most prized prospects, especially pitchers, some proven bats, and hopefully not your firstborn to gets the Rays seriously interested in trading away Crawford.

 

The Brewers aren't trading Prince, as much as everyone else would love to have him. And Tampa's not trading Crawford.

 

He'd be great to have, no doubt. But he's not playing anywhere other than Tampa for the next few years.

[pogokat]

Briggs---

 

it's interesting that you are saying that Gross isn't comparable to Ibanez considering Ibanez didn't establish himself as an everyday major leaguer until he was 30...in fact if i was to pick a major leaguer that gross was most likely to turn into if he continues to improve, i think ibanez would probably be the guy

[And That]

Maybe I'm looking at this way too pragmatically, but in Crawford, I'm looking at a good but not great LF signed to a decent but not great contract. I'm also looking at an organization almost completely bereft of pitching at the major league level.

 

If I have Carl Crawford, and have the D-Rays pitching staff (for the faint of heart, don't look at their individual pitcher ERAs), I'd kill for pitching. They have Scott Kazmir, James Shields and a bag of crap for the rest of their rotation, and generally a bag of crap in the bullpen.

 

Here's what you tell Andy Friedmann: You can have three guys that will start for you next year: Claudio Vargas, Manny Parra and Zack Jackson. You can have a starting CF so Baldelli can shift to LF or RF: Tony Gwynn. And here's a catcher: Johnny Estrada. I'll even pay for half of Estrada's contract. Just give me Crawford.

[pogokat]

that's a garbage dump outside of parra...but i think you listed the 4 guys with the best shot of being traded this year...

[And That]

that's a garbage dump outside of parra...but i think you listed the 4 guys with the best shot of being traded this year...

You say garbage dump, I say a number of pitchers very useful to the Rays. They need to somehow solidify a pitching staff there, and this is a great way.

FWIW, I wouldn't call any of the guys (maybe outside of ZJ) dumps in any trade. Gwynn has value in a number of places (SD and Minnesota, for instance), Vargas has value in that he's a healthy SP and Estrada has value in that he's a good MLB catcher (relatively to the rest of the baseball world he hasn't played for).

[pogokat]

sorry...truckload o' mediocrity...better?

 

i think that half that crowd will be dealt, but i dont think we'll get crrawford for it..

 

maybe capuano, turnbow, and TGJ could get it done though

[And That]

maybe capuano, turnbow, and TGJ could get it done though

You say truckload of mediocrity, I say it's the same thing.

 

[colbyjack]

Pogo, good point on Gross vs. Ibanez.

 

Toby, if Friedmann made that deal and I were a D-Rays fan, I would be calling for his head. You mentioned the D-Rays ERA of their starters, and I see guys like Vargas and Jackson only adding to that problem. They have a ton of talented young arms on the way up, and I just don't see them dealing a perennial All-Star for a handful of warm bodies. You mentioned the D-Rays terrible ERAs on their team, as Vargas and Jackson probalby wouldn't do anything to improve that.

 

Plus, they don't need Gwynn. B.J. Upton reportedly is their CF of the future. If anyone is the odd man out in Tampa's OF it is Baldelli for his inability to stay healthy.

 

And Dioner Navarro may very well be Johnny Estrada Jr.

 

You are right on one point, as Vargas, Gwynn and Estrada may have some value individually, such as trade bait for improving the bullpen and/or the bench here and there, but we're talking about a perennial superstar here. Don't you remember those ridiculous trade scenarios we tossed out way back when on the ESPN board trying to figure out ways to get Carlos Beltran http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif?