Turnbow wants to be traded?

[gregmag]

It goes back to the question that was asked many, many times in the booing thread that was never answered, what does booing a player accomplish. Appartently nothing much positive.

 

Pretendastronaut, I thought your post was great until this. First of all, the fact that something does harm is no proof that the same thing does no good. Second, while I'm not a big Turnbow hater, I can see a fair argument that making a player who has had problems want to leave is, in fact, a positive. If nothing else, Turnbow's comments make it impossible to argue that booing is meaningless. Third, and to me most important, my big beef with the "stop booing" movement is the seeming assumption that booing is something that individual fans carefully and rationally decide to do or not to do. It isn't. Turnbow's bad games over the past two years would have guaranteed him boos in any stadium in the western world. It's nothing more or less than mass psychology. It is what it is, and it won't stop.

 

Greg.

[windiv07]

In his defense, IMO, Turnbow was Yosted several times (I witnessed this 3 times) when Shouse should have been brought in to face a left-handed stacked lineup of hitters in the 8th to shake things up before the call was made for Turnbow.

 

I disagree with this criticism of Yost. Turnbow was a closer and stated before this season that he wanted to be a closer again. To do that, he has to be able to get out rightys and leftys. It wasn't Yost's fault in the instances you describe that Turnbow didn't live up to his own expectations. Besides, the times Yost called for Turnbow in the middle of an inning were the times that Turnbow seemed most to fail.

 

I feel bad for Turnbow, hope he's around next season, and wish he would not be booed. But his problems with the fans are certainly more his own fault than the fault of the manager.

It doesn't matter. Turnbow was not a closer this year but maybe twice (not the games I cited). The reason Turnbow was relieved of the closer's role by the Cordero aquisition is precisely why he failed in those situations as a setup man (inability to get lefties out...and Shouse was up and ready when Turnbow got the call). One would think that after several examples of this, the manager would learn why most teams have two setup men (a lefty and a righty). The role of setup and of closer are as different as day and night. This is why closers get the big bucks and setup men don't...less pressure. But when you use them in a fundamentally incorrect way (like rhp against lefties), the expectation of an unfavorable outcome entirely reasonable.

 

It could very well be that many of the boos Derrick is having a problem with were actually directed at the person who used him wrongly (Yost). We'll never know.

[DougJones43]

The 'bows better against lefties than righties. When would you bring T-blow in?

 

 

How do you figure? This year, lefties had a .597 OPS against T-Bow, and righties only had a .570 OPS against him.

 

Meanwhile, Shouse vs lefties OPS is .520, and vs righties OPS is .689. Maybe Shouse should have faced more of the tough lefties,even if it was in "Turnbow's" 8th inning - GASP! Turnbow could have been used to start the 7th a few times or something when RH were due up, even though that went against Ned's set-in-stone little bullpen plan.

[JJHardy7]

It seems it's more made up stuff from WSSP. Did anyone ever think booing a player would be positive? I just think the booing happens because like some have said the manner in which Turnbow has struggled. I really think last year he was given a fair deal and to even be back on the Brewers was fair. How many playoff level teams keep a guy that struggled like Turnbow did as a closer last year (granted his salary isn't too high)?

 

If he can avoid the same old mistake (command) and not blame it on being used to much, he wouldn't be booed. He could just say I tried my best and the booing doesn't help, but I understand why they do it.

 

Also, I don't get booed at my job, but I don't make 3 million a year. I guess I'd rather get booed and make 3 million.

[windiv07]

The 'bows better against lefties than righties. When would you bring T-blow in?

 

 

How do you figure? This year, lefties had a .597 OPS against T-Bow, and righties only had a .570 OPS against him.

 

Meanwhile, Shouse vs lefties OPS is .520, and vs righties OPS is .689. Maybe Shouse should have faced more of the tough lefties,even if it was in "Turnbow's" 8th inning - GASP! Turnbow could have been used to start the 7th a few times or something when RH were due up, even though that went against Ned's set-in-stone little bullpen plan.

This analysis would be far too technical for a dugout manager to consider. http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/roll.gif

[sweepscc]

For T-blows career righties OPS= .674

lefties OPS= .662

[windiv07]

For T-blows career righties OPS= .674

lefties OPS= .662

The last I checked, it is a manger's job to adjust to the current performance trend rather than to manage on the basis of ancient history.

[windiv07]

I wonder (aloud) who else on this team wants to be traded and the real reason why.

[DougJones43]

For T-blows career righties OPS= .674

lefties OPS= .662

Those numbers are pretty close (as were the numbers I posted from this year for that matter). The point is, that isn't all there is to look at. Like I pointed out, Shouse is much better against lefties. That stuff all needs to be considered when putting together a bullpen strategy. You can't just isolate each guys stats and stick them into an uncompromisable role. Everything needs to be taken into consideration, including the rest of your bullpen's strengths and weaknesses, as well as the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent.

 

That's the problem with just having a 7th inning guy, 8th inning guy, closer, etc. ...it doesn't even play matchups or anything which is half of the strategical battle. It's far too simplistic, and doesn't end up fully giving each of your players in the best opportunities to succeed.

[LS Brewer]

In his defense, IMO, Turnbow was Yosted several times (I witnessed this 3 times) when Shouse should have been brought in to face a left-handed stacked lineup of hitters in the 8th to shake things up before the call was made for Turnbow.

I disagree with this criticism of Yost. Turnbow was a closer and stated before this season that he wanted to be a closer again...It wasn't Yost's fault in the instances you describe that Turnbow didn't live up to his own expectations.

 

Wait, the players get to decide what their role on the team is? Doesn't the manager have the ability to veto these ideas? I thought that's why he's the manager. I sure hope that Ben Sheets doesn't decide he wants to bat cleanup next season. Or Yovani Gallardo doesn't decide he wants to see if he can pitch with his foot. We'd be screwed, and the manager would be powerless to stop it.

I think you missed my point. In the article, Turnbow was complaining about the booing and Windiv07 attempted to deflect some of that blame to Ned. The blame should be placed on the guy doing the complaining rather than the manager in this case as the player failed to live up to his own expectations and the expectations he wanted us all to have for him by claiming he wanted to be closer at the begining of the year. There are many things Ned could be criticized for, but Turnbow's own inability to throw strikes to lefties and righties in certain situations is not one of them. Besides, if you look at Windiv's original statement, he criticizes Ned for not putting Turnbow in in the middle of the eighth inning after Shouse has pitched to a few batters. In my opinion, based upon observation, that would have been a bigger mistake as Turnbow really seemed to have problems where he did not start an inning.

 

 

[Mr QL]

Tell him not to forget to take his buddy Matt Wise.

[kgbaseball]

If he wants to go, let him go. Simple as that.

[LS Brewer]

If he wants to go, let him go. Simple as that.

 

I see no problem convincing some GM to give us something for him though!

[Roscoe Chill]

The Brewers should want to trade Turnbow just as much as Turnbow apparently wants to be traded. Sure, some will say, that creates a hole, and they're going to lose Cordero and Linebrink as well...but in my opinion Turnbow can't be trusted in pressure filled situations, so he's not someone I'd worry about. So, the "hole" is already there. If they can't get rid of him (likely) then fine, but if they can find any takers...I'm sure Turnbow will get his wish.

[giffted1]

For T-blows career righties OPS= .674

lefties OPS= .662

The last I checked, it is a manger's job to adjust to the current performance trend rather than to manage on the basis of ancient history.

If a player is in a slump you don't just throw his career performance out the window and give up on him. With that thinking Rickie wouldn't have played at all this August or September because he was slumping earlier in the year. Ned was patient with Turnbow...he gave him many chances because of his past performance and it didn't work. Ned also gave Rickie more chances even though he was slumping and it paid off.

 

[lukevan]

That's the problem with just having a 7th inning guy, 8th inning guy, closer, etc. ...it doesn't even play matchups or anything which is half of the strategical battle. It's far too simplistic, and doesn't end up fully giving each of your players in the best opportunities to succeed.

 

100% agree and that's basically the one thing nobody likes about Yost: his bullpen (mis)management. I think Turnbow can still be effective if used in this fashion.

 

In '08, keep Ray King or Mitch Stetter to go with Shouse so you have TWO usable LOOGYs. Save Shouse for the 8th inning and use the other lefty in the 6th, 7th or extra innings if Shouse is gone.

 

 

As for Turnbow, I don't blame him for saying something about his treatment. It's unfortunate how much heat he gets comparatively to other relievers who have performed worse.

[M Skjellyfetti]

Like I pointed out, Shouse is much better against lefties.

 

I didn't see that at all. I don't think there's a whole lot of difference between .520 and .597. Honestly, they're both pretty darn good. I'm also surprised Turnbow's OPS's against were so much better than his career numbers this year.

[Bring Back the Stein]

Do we really think that they're going to allow Cordero to walk? After this mess, I think Cordero's a must get. Linebrink can go, ditto D'bow, but Cordero is worth his millions, whatever his struggles on the road.

 

[stoutdude04]

In his defense, IMO, Turnbow was Yosted several times (I witnessed this 3 times) when Shouse should have been brought in to face a left-handed stacked lineup of hitters in the 8th to shake things up before the call was made for Turnbow.

I disagree with this criticism of Yost. Turnbow was a closer and stated before this season that he wanted to be a closer again...It wasn't Yost's fault in the instances you describe that Turnbow didn't live up to his own expectations.

 

Wait, the players get to decide what their role on the team is? Doesn't the manager have the ability to veto these ideas? I thought that's why he's the manager. I sure hope that Ben Sheets doesn't decide he wants to bat cleanup next season. Or Yovani Gallardo doesn't decide he wants to see if he can pitch with his foot. We'd be screwed, and the manager would be powerless to stop it.

 

I love that a thread about Bow turns into Yost comments again.

[uecker9]

Trade him to Florida, they have great fans.

[rluzinski]

I can see a fair argument that making a player who has had problems want to leave is, in fact, a positive. If nothing else, Turnbow's comments make it impossible to argue that booing is meaningless.

 

You'd rather have the booing masses decide what's best for the team, not Doug Melvin? Interesting.

 

The last I checked, it is a manger's job to adjust to the current performance trend rather than to manage on the basis of ancient history.

 

It's the managers' job to know the difference between junk splits and meaningful ones. Using one year splits from a reliever is asinine and it's something Yost does all the time.

[DougJones43]

I didn't see that at all. I don't think there's a whole lot of difference between .520 and .597.

OPS vs LHB:

 [u]2007[/u] [u]Career[/u] Turnbow .597 .662 Shouse .520 .607

If you don't think that's a big enough difference to take into consideration for matchups, than I guess we just have a difference of opinion. Also, considering that Shouse was often used to face RH (who he's historically much worse against) and Turnbow to face tough LH in the same game, I just really feel like they weren't put into the best situation to succeeed. Basing your bullpen decisions strictly off of what inning it is rather than all other factors seems stupid to me, but that's just my opinion.

[Thurston Fluff]

Turnbow was Yosted several times (I witnessed this 3 times) when Shouse should have been brought in to face a left-handed stacked lineup of hitters in the 8th to shake things up before the call was made for Turnbow.

 

This could be turned around just as easily. Yost was Turnbowed. He put Turnbow in to do the job he is paid to do and failed. He isn't tough enough to handle a man on base, he can't come in and put out a fire in the middle of an inning when called upon, he can't regain control if he starts out poorly so he needs to have someone ready to bail him out regularly, yet he's paid to do just that. If Yost didn't have to worry about head cases like him how much easier would his job be? Having to deal with someone so soft and unpredicatable as a main cog in the bullpen while in a pennant race just isn't something a manager should have to deal with. Toughen up and do your job. Then everyone looks good. If you can't do that then it's time to find someone more reliable.

[DougJones43]

If Yost didn't have to worry about head cases like him how much easier would his job be? Having to deal with someone so soft and unpredicatable as a main cog in the bullpen while in a pennant race just isn't something a manager should have to deal with.

I will agree that Ned's job wasn't made any easier by given a roster full of "finnicky" players who seem to be prone to collapse in certain matchups or situations. The Brewers seemed to have more of these fragile kind of guys on the team than any other team. Guys that can only succeed in the perfect situation. Jenkins can't hit lefties. Mench can' hit righties. Estrada can't draw walks or throw out baserunners. Braun and Weeks couldn't be trusted to play defense in later innings. Wise all of the sudden went down the tubes after he beaned a guy. Turnbow had a whole laundry list of things: Can't pitch 2 days in a row, can't come in with guys on base, if he can't find the strikezone right away he needs to be removed immidiately, etc.

 

I think Yost still could have done a much better job in working around some of these issues, but all things considered, Melvin should have made sure that he wasn't stuck with such a large set of stipulations to work around. We need more guys who aren't so specialized, and don't have so many gaping holes in their game. The team needs more guys who are resiliant, reliable, and solid players from the to top to bottom.

[sheetswannabe]

I wouldnt mind letting him walk. Its sad though, he has so much potential, but we are afraid to see it because he gets wild. I say he should spend some time in AAA working on his control, then maybe he will come back. Anyone wanna see a Turnbow, and *insert name here*, for CoCo Crisp deal?