Brewer infield: defense and hitting issues

[Ennder]

I don't care about K totals if you're going to slug for a high percentage, but when you can use your speed like Rickie can, putting the ball in play is much more important. He can't steal first base.

 

But you can BB to 1st base and you can hit to 2B or for a run. If Weeks repeats this season year after year(over a full season of course) he'll be one of the better leadoff hitters in baseball regardless of his K's.

[kgbaseball]

I understand that. I'm just saying I'd like to see him cut down on his Ks and put the ball in play more, giving him an even better chance to get on base.

[AdvantageSchneider]

He K's a lot because he sees a lot of pitches in most at bats. He's going to strike out a fair amount of time because of that. I don't have a problem with that since he's OBP is high.

 

The big probelm with our IF defense is the range. Prince, Rickie and Braun are all below average in range and Hardy is average at best.

 

Frankly, I don't think we should waste time with Braun at 3rd. Put Hall at 3rd and move Braun to LF or RF. Hart plays a decent CF. He could possibly get much better given full time duty there.

[Fatter than Joey]

Whether BFnet.com likes it or not, Braun will be the opening day starter defensively at 3rd in 08, and Hall will still be in CF.

 

The other point we are not making in this discussion is that Hall plays terrible D in CF compared to his peers -- so by moving Hall to 3b, we are not only upgrading 3b but CF as well.

[windiv07]

Has anybody thought about how moving from the left side of the infield to center field affects a hitters perspective? I realize that when you are up at the plate, you should be remembering what batting practice yielded that day, but what about timing? If you spend 50% of your time in the field (on defense) at a new position 200' farther from the plate than you did the year before, it takes the ball longer to get to you. Would that affect your timing at the plate somewhat and could this account for some of Bill's power slump this year? Just thinking out loud here.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The other point we are not making in this discussion is that Hall plays terrible D in CF compared to his peers -- so by moving Hall to 3b, we are not only upgrading 3b but CF as well.

 

So who would take over in center? The only player currently on the Brewers' roster that is an upgrade defensively to Hall in center is Gwynn. Even with the poor season Hall had offensively, he's still a better hitter than Gwynn ever will be. Hart is an above average right fielder, but I don't like how he goes back on balls in center field (remember the pirates games right after Hall was injured? Hart has to play a deep outfield, which would lead to a ton of bloop hits finding the green if he played center). Even if you move Hart to center, who then takes over right that's a great defensive outfielder for the Brewers?

 

My point is that if you move Hall back to third, yes it improves their IF defense at 3rd, but then you're opening up a whole different can of worms regarding the outfield defense. Braun's never played OF, Hart would go from an above average right fielder to an average to below average CF, and in right you don't know who's gonna be there. It's improving one area and taking 2-3 steps back in other areas.

 

If the Brewers move Braun to left, they need to acquire either a 3B or a CF that is a very good defender, via trade or free agency. If they pick up a CF, then you move Hall back to third - if they pick up a 3B, Hall stays out in center. I think Hart's too good a right fielder to mess with moving him over to center and leaving a defensive hole out in right.

[Fatter than Joey]

The only player currently on the Brewers' roster that is an upgrade defensively to Hall in center is Gwynn.

 

Hall was among the worst CFers in the NL last year (Hall made 9 errors!) -- Hart, while not a superstar in CF, is just a little below average -- Hall is WAY below average if not the worst. Hart would be an upgrade to both Hall and Gwynn defensively in CF.

 

Improving Hall defensively in CF might be accomplished by strategically locating a 50 gallon bucket after each AB. -- I kid -- but upgrading Hall in CF is a must, and not that hard to do (from a defensive talent standpoint).

[RoseBowlMtg]

I don't think the Weeks and Prince numbers are horrible grouped together but the K's for Prince are too high and will improve with patience.

 

Check out these numbers:

 

.........BA ahead of count/BA behind the count

 

Prince: .356/.206

Braun: .337, .250

JJ: .297/ .222

Weeks: .225/.230

Hart: .338/ .250

 

Now I know most everyone is better when ahead of the count but looking at Prince's numbers he will benefit the most by knowing the pitchers aren't always going to throw a strike. No complaints about Prince's walks but his K's will get better the more he gets ahead of the count.

[Baldkin]

Hall may have been the worst over the course of the year FTJ, but I can't believe he was the worst in the second half.

 

He was so much better after the middle of May or so than he was the first 6 weeks.

 

Heck, maybe I'm wrong.

[M Skjellyfetti]

Hall also was top 10 in out of zone plays, though. That makes me feel that there's a good chance for him to become a really solid CFer seeing as how last year was his first year playing there. Also, I think Hart could play CF just as well as Hall did last year, but I think Hall has more defensive upside in center.

[logan82]

How much does Braun at 3B affect Hardy at short? I saw Reenteria make quite a few plays on balls hit hard up the middle that Hardy doesn't get to. Is that because he has to play a little closer to 3B to cover some of the area Braun should be covering? Same for Weeks at 2B because of Fielder. Also, how many errors could a better 1B have prevented? I know all these things are almost impossible to get an accurate measure for, but I was just wondering, in everybody's opinion, how much of an effect one player in a position can have on the player next to him.

[Ennder]

to add to that point logan3825, how much has the shift helped or hurt the offense. It seemed like Yost used the shift on even marginal pull hitters instead of just the hardcore pull hitters and it didn't seem to have good results.

[endaround]

Its because Yost uses hit charts from the current season only. I forgot when this was found out, but earlier in the year a hitter was going aginst his career tendencies and Yost played him as if this years 200 ABs changed everything.

[logan82]

to add to that point logan3825, how much has the shift helped or hurt the offense. It seemed like Yost used the shift on even marginal pull hitters instead of just the hardcore pull hitters and it didn't seem to have good results.

I guess this relates to what I was asking since it relates to positioning. In that case I would ask if we shift a lot because we have a weak defense instead of asking if we should shift. If we start talking about wether we should shift that is going to lead to the people who support Yost saying they like the shift because "it plays to the percentages" and the people who don't like Yost will see it as "just another stupid move by our manager." If it is going to turn into another Yost discussion well, I am not going to get involved in that here. Bottom line is I am asking, is how much is one player's defensive positioning affected by another player's defensive shortcomings?

[TooLiveBrew]

that's an interesting issue, logan, and a question that seemingly only someone from our coaching staff (or a scout with extensive work on the Crew, or an intelligent fan who goes to nearly every game and payed attn. to this) could answer. I'd have to default my guess that, no, you don't 'piggyback' fielders to compensate for subpar teammates next to them, but really that's just a guess/assumption.

 

Another guess (just guess) of mine is that the balls back up the middle this year are more likely to be caused by the shifting left or right of the infielders more than specific quirks in alignment to attempt to make up for poor corner fielding. In that vein I agree with Ennder's thought, though I don't think that's something that should create/necessitate a "YOST SUKZ!" back-and-forth, just objective observation. Many managers/coaches employ shifting, and I think the jury is still out on whether or not it's really all that effective as a general strategy, since iirc it's fairly new.

[logan82]

In that vein I agree with Ennder's thought, though I don't think that's something that should create/necessitate a "YOST SUKZ!" back-and-forth, just objective observation. Many managers/coaches employ shifting, and I think the jury is still out on whether or not it's really all that effective as a general strategy, since iirc it's fairly new.

I would like to agree with you, but at this point I think there has been so much Yost stuff brought up that any talk about managing strategies has a good chance of devolving into a Yost debate. I could be and hope I am wrong.http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif If we had stats in support of or against shifts, then I would be interested, but to me at least it is a subjective discussion.

[TooLiveBrew]

sadly at this point I think I agree that it's almost unavoidable for things to devolved into YOAHST SOLVDD. With the shifts, it really does seem like a 'damned if you do & damned if you don't' situation, as the choice to put on a shift or not put one on can be the difference btw. a hit/out, run/no run, etc. Until there is more reliable data on shifting's effect, I don't know how we can ever reasonably discuss it. That said, it seems like unless you face a dead-pull hitter (Giambi, Dunn, Glaus(?)), a shift is an unnecessary over-analysis/reaction. I think the phrase "Keep it simple, stupid!" applies well (though I understand it can get complex).

[logan82]

All I will add to the discussion about shifts is that they look really bad when they don't work and go largely unnoticed when the do. We are more likley to remember things that generate a large level of emotion rather than things that don't. Still that is only my opinion.

[TooLiveBrew]

This isn't just an INF stat, but I caught this at mlbtraderumors.com (via an article on the Marlins):

 

In 2007, the Brewers were 13th of 16 in the NL in DEF_EFF (defensive efficiency, which = 1-BABIP...or as Baseball Prospectus puts it, "the rate at which balls put into play are converted into outs by a team's defense"). They were 25th of 30 MLB teams. I'd imagine this stat has quite a bit to do with luck, but the placement/rank reinforces what we already know about this squad's poor defense.

 

One side note - we were 23rd of 30 in the ROE stat ("Reached on Error: when a batter reaches first base as a direct result of a fielding error.", BP), & 12th of 16 in the NL. Again, confirming what we know. The defense needs to improve in 2008 if it is to be a playoff season.

[danzig6767]

If the Brewers bring back largely all the same position players at the same positions and want much better defense,it will remind me of another local pro team,the Milwaukee Bucks.Have a bunch of bad defenders that was the second worst defensive team in the NBA the last two years and brought back most of the bad defenders from last years team.

 

The Bucks plan for better defense this year compared to last years horrid defense seems to be the hope and pray plan.Get on their knees and pray a bunch of very bad defenders are only kinda bad this year.At this point at least,that looks like it very well could be the Brewers plan also to cure the defensive woes.

[bklynbrewcrew]

The Brewers poor defense is largely a result of the organizations philosophy under Melvin. We always draft the big bat and completely ignore defense altogether. We did this in regards to Fielder, Braun, Weeks and especially LaPorta. The organization philosophy is draft the best bat available and worry about defense later. With regards to LaPorta it seems like we were the only organization that feels that he can play even an adequate left field. All we can do is hope our guys improve defensively because their bats are exceptional. I just hope that Braun, Weeks, and Fielder can eventually become average defensively though that seems unlikely.

[JohnBriggs12]

I'd leave Braun alone for now. Aramis Ramirez made 23 errors in 96 games for Pittsburgh in 2003 and he's never topped 16 in any one year with the Cubs. I'd bet Braun will show noticeable improvement. If he doesn't he sure has the speed to be a good outfielder.

 

If it were me, I'd flip flop Hall and Weeks. Weeks is faster than Hall. Hall is a better infielder than Weeks. Yes Weeks has improved, but I think any improvement from here on will be minimal.

[RoseBowlMtg]

Are there any stats on non-errors? Not finishing dp? Prince being too short compared to an average firstbaseman? I was at over 40 games this year and watched most all of the away games and the "little things" are not even close to being done. Will they acquire them with experience? Will they figure it out just in time to outplay this market? This off-season hopes are so much higher than two years ago because we see the potential. Now hopefully they don't follow the Bill Hall path next year.

[endaround]

I'd leave Braun alone for now. Aramis Ramirez made 23 errors in 96 games for Pittsburgh in 2003 and he's never topped 16 in any one year with the Cubs. I'd bet Braun will show noticeable improvement. If he doesn't he sure has the speed to be a good outfielder.

 

If it were me, I'd flip flop Hall and Weeks. Weeks is faster than Hall. Hall is a better infielder than Weeks. Yes Weeks has improved, but I think any improvement from here on will be minimal.

As a 23 year old, Ramirez was 11 FRAR. As a 23 year old Braun is -10 FRAR. If its 2005, you see if Braun can develop at 3B. It isn't though. Giving away 2-3 wins with Braun at 3B over Hall just makes little sense if you're goal is to win.

 

[rluzinski]

Are there any stats on non-errors?

 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pfk_WuYpfduzefA8-s0_iYw&gid=0