How dire is the bullpen situation for 2008?

[BrewCrewRising]

This is a two part question:

 

How much trouble are we in for 2008 in regards to the bullpen? It's obvious that our bullpen is a weakness. You may argue that it's average, but there are few pitchers there I have a lot of confidence in . Even CoCo makes me jumpy at times. So, I'm assuming we can't re-sign Cordero, Turnbow is shaky and not to be seen as a lynchpin of the bp, Wise is a freeagent if he's not dead, Linebrink is a FA and I fear that we'll re-sign him, and don't even get me started on Spurling, McClung, and Aquino.

 

Also...did DM totally blow it by trading Thatcher and Sarfate? I know that Sarfate's numbers at AAA were not inspiring, but he's pretty good in Houston now. And Thatcher's numbers are pretty darn good in SD. I know hindsight is 20/20, but given what a weakness the BP has become, it bothers me that two good young arms have parted ways with the Crew.

 

Thoughts or insights?

[Fatter than Joey]

A couple of thoughts...

 

1.) I think some of Vargas/Cappy/Bush may be added to the pen, which would make the outlook a little more cheery.

 

2.) I think SD knew more about Thatcher than we did, we keep harping about Inman, but SD seemed more interested in Thatcher from Day 1.

 

3.) If Yost is in fact back in 2008, it really doesn't matter, he could use 8 pitchers and not one of them being the best reliever in a one run game.

[bklynbrewcrew]

The bullpen is far and way the biggest weakness on this team. If we dont sign Cordero we will be losing the one reliable reliever that we have. As far as Linebrink is concerned he is way too spotty in my opinion to pay him the 6 million or so he will get as a free agent. So asuming we lose those two we will be in deep deep trouble. Turnbow is completely unreliable, Shouse was a fluke who is coming back down to earth, and guys like Spurling, Aquino, and McClung are falt out awful. As far as trading Thatcher and selling off Sarfate is concerned I would have to say that both were big mistakes by Melvin who has done a disastrous job in putting together a bullpen. This will clearly be Melvin's biggest offseason challenge as this part of the club could kill any chance of future success.

[trwi7]

Wise isn't a free agent but if we don't re-sign Cordero or Linebrink and if we don't sign either of them trade for a closer then we're screwed. I'm sick of patchwork, scrapheap bullpens. That was fine when we weren't competing but that just isn't going to fly next year.

[brewmann04]

I would think they have to sign Coco and as for wise and Turnbow if Melvin can trade them so be it but yes the Pen

does need an overhaul.

[naivin]

Nearly every guy ot there is completely unreliable. Its a huge problem, and the main reason we are sitting here 2 games back instead of 2 games up. Fixing it is gonna cost some serious prospects, FA money, or both in the off season.

[RightFieldCoder]

Instead of hearing who needs to go, I'd like to see who we should target to bring in here.

[Fatter than Joey]

Shouse was a fluke who is coming back down to earth

 

I think Shouse has been very consistent -- if you look at what he is supposed to do -- Get LHers out. Shouse is a baby seal clubbing waiting to happen if you leave him in to pitch to RHers. To his credit, he probably has pitched better than expected in unfavorable situations. You keep a guy like Shouse on your roster to pitch to the Bonds, Dunn, Jr., etc. in the league -- you don't have him on your roster to "pitch the 8th inning".

 

"Coming back to earth" is really more a function of Shouse getting yosted a lot towards then end of the year.

[naivin]

Shouse has been put into situations you would otherwise prefer not to use him simply because he is about the only one who has demonstrated any sort of consistent ability to get guys out. Unfortunatley the state of our bullpen is such that he has probably been as good an option against RHers as are the other option such as Turnbow, McClung, Spurling, Aquino - yikes! If that doesn't tell the whole story right there I don't know what will. Doug Melvin - we need you!

[BrewCrewRising]

Wise isn't a free agent but if we don't re-sign Cordero or Linebrink and if we don't sign either of them trade for a closer then we're screwed. I'm sick of patchwork, scrapheap bullpens. That was fine when we weren't competing but that just isn't going to fly next year.

Wise signed a two year contract before the beginning of last season, and MLB4U.com reports that Wise is a FA at the end of this season.

 

[endaround]

He isn't a FA, his contract is just up. MLB4U free agent thing is misleading. Wise will have just over 5 years of service time at the end of the season meaning he is still arby eligible and not yet a FA.

[BrewCrewRising]

He isn't a FA, his contract is just up. MLB4U free agent thing is misleading. Wise will have just over 5 years of service time at the end of the season meaning he is still arby eligible and not yet a FA.

 

Ah...my bad. Thanks for the explanation. And, damn, I was kind of looking forward to letting him go. He just isn't that good.

[brewmann04]

I think they will look hard at Mclung and Aquino because of their Arms. I don"t know if they are good Options but Greg is only 24.

[RobertR]

Instead of hearing who needs to go, I'd like to see who we should target to bring in here.

 

I don't know how enamored Texas is of him, but Joaquin Benoit is someone I'd target in the offseason. Looking at his age and peripherals, I think he's going to be a very good closer soon.

 

Robert

[twobrewers]

For what it is worth...

 

In April and May everyone would have said the strength of our team is the bullpen. Wise was good. Turnbow and Coco were golden. It just goes to show that as a team goes through hot and cold streaks so does the bullpen. (Of course, everything since then has been one big cold streak)

 

But the point is that it isn't neccessarily the guys you have out there - but rather how well they are currently pitching. If we don't make any huge moves in the offseason, it doesn't mean our pen will be horrible. Maybe Wise puts it all together and becomes very reliable like he once was. Shouse fills his role very nicely. I think Bush is likely heading for the pen. (He always seemed like a two pitch pitcher to me) Bush might even end up as a closer.

 

Personally, I think part of the problem is we have too many high righ/high reward type players. Turnbow, Aquino and McClung all have the potential to look lights out - as well as give up 5 runs in one inning. When you trot more than one of them out during a game, you are greatly increasing the chances of imploding. I would like to see a few more "stable" pitchers who you know can throw strikes.

 

But as was discussed in an earlier thread, throwing money at the bullpen usually ends up very badly.

[BREWCREW5]

One reason the Cubs have been doing so well is the fact they have Marmol, who basically gives up no runs and can pitch more than one inning if need be. We dont have anything close to a guy like that.

[kattleflap]

I'm curious if anybody has considered Sheets for the closer's role? His innings pitched the last couple of seasons due to the injuries have been 156, 104, and so far 141 this year so obviously we aren't getting ace innings from him, is there a better way to use him? Does anybody think he could pitch back to back days or would we just be asking for more injury issues? I know his DL time the last couple of seasons has mostly been flukey, could this be a way to try and avoid those injuries?

 

For what it's worth, I don't see TBow or CoCo playing for the Brewers next year.

[bretsky07]

i think they will look hard at Mclung and Aquino because of their Arms. I don"t know if they are good Options but Greg is only 24.

 

He's actually 29. And that's just plain sad. What can we package Aquino, Estrada, and Vargas for? Doug Davis and Dana Eveland?

 

Also, Steve Bray had better get a very long look in the spring. He's done nothing but dominate in AAA and has been passed over for guys like McClung and Aquino, because they can throw in the upper 90's, but with little control.

[BrewCrewRising]

For what it is worth...

 

In April and May everyone would have said the strength of our team is the bullpen. Wise was good. Turnbow and Coco were golden. It just goes to show that as a team goes through hot and cold streaks so does the bullpen. (Of course, everything since then has been one big cold streak)

 

But the point is that it isn't neccessarily the guys you have out there - but rather how well they are currently pitching. If we don't make any huge moves in the offseason, it doesn't mean our pen will be horrible. Maybe Wise puts it all together and becomes very reliable like he once was. Shouse fills his role very nicely. I think Bush is likely heading for the pen. (He always seemed like a two pitch pitcher to me) Bush might even end up as a closer.

 

Personally, I think part of the problem is we have too many high righ/high reward type players. Turnbow, Aquino and McClung all have the potential to look lights out - as well as give up 5 runs in one inning. When you trot more than one of them out during a game, you are greatly increasing the chances of imploding. I would like to see a few more "stable" pitchers who you know can throw strikes.

 

But as was discussed in an earlier thread, throwing money at the bullpen usually ends up very badly.

Very good points, and a nice post.

I agree about throwing money at the bullpen. That's one of the reasons I'm annoyed with the Thatcher/Sarfate trades. Sarfate I can let go of a lot more quickly since his presence performance did not seem predictable from his AAA numbers. Maybe he was just miserable in AAA. Thatcher though is killing me.

[Roscoe Chill]

The bullpen situation next year as of right now (assuming a couple defections) is very concerning. And that's why I'm suggesting/hoping that the Brewers can trade Ben Sheets for three live, young arms (but Major League ready or close to it). I wasn't necessarily talking about three starting pitchers. I don't mean to turn this in to a should they trade Sheets thread, but that might be a way to stock the pitching shelf.

[brewmann04]

i also think the Bullpen was used alot the early part of the year with our Starters not being able to pitch late in the Games. There also a good point that we don"t seem to have a good Pitcher who can pitch for more than 1 day without needing a rest. I would think if we can get our starters into at the very least into the sisth we should be ok.

But the brewers need to find a good rubber arm for the Bullpen.

[bork]

Second half ERA are telling:

Cordero - 2.81

Shouse - 3.08

Linebrink - 3.09

----------------

Turnbow - 6.14

Spurling - 6.53

Wise - 7.31

 

The rest are in the middle, but the sample size is pretty small. Too may of the relievers just fall apart when runners get on base. Turnbow has a team worst 20.61 ERA with RISP.

 

If they can't resign Cordero, I hope they can at least sign Linebrink. Otherwise we're left with Shouse and lots of questions.

[colbyjack]

Some good thoughts already, but I'm not going to come down on Melvin for dealing Sarfate just yet. His inability to consistently throw strikes wouldn't exactly endear him to fans given what we had to witness last night.

 

But yes, the bullpen looks pretty scary for next year, and I too believe that fixing the bullpen by throwing a lot of money at it is a recipe for disaster. Losing Thatcher has definitely been magnified, and the possibility of losing Cordero and Linebrink is scary.

 

Robert brings up a very good suggestion in Joaquin Benoit. I have suggested Chad Cordero in the past, as the Nationals may not want to pay their closer in excess of $4.15M, what he made this year in his first year of arbitration eligibility. Of course he is likely to cost quite a bit via trade, but he's young and has been very successful so far during his career, even if he hasn't been as sharp this year.

[xisxisxis]

The bullpen situation next year as of right now (assuming a couple defections) is very concerning. And that's why I'm suggesting/hoping that the Brewers can trade Ben Sheets for three live, young arms (but Major League ready or close to it). I wasn't necessarily talking about three starting pitchers. I don't mean to turn this in to a should they trade Sheets thread, but that might be a way to stock the pitching shelf.

I don't like the idea of trading Sheets to address the bullpen issue as it creates another hole. MassBrew mentioned the Marlins pen last night in the IGT. They have several hard throwing young guys. I've liked Logan Kensing for awhile. He has good peripherals and he throws hard, but was hurt for most of this year. I doubt he would cost much in terms of players to get from the Marlins. If Doug offered a middling prospect and some cash I bet they would jump at the chance (really any body and some cash would probably get it done.) He could slot into the 7th/8th inning lead guy (depending on whether Linebrink stays), but has the potential to close in a few years. I'd also look at Jason Fraser from the Jays as a setup man. He'll be 31 next year, but he could come relatively cheap and he's more reliable than Wise or Turnbow. He's not a huge breakout possibility, but he'd probably be a cheap acquisition.

 

[Roscoe Chill]

I guess it creates a hole if Sheets would be able to pitch an entire year. And I'm assuming Sheets' last year in Milwaukee will be next year as well. Trading him in the middle of the season when the team is (hopefully) in contention for a playoff spot wouldn't be possible. Having him break down again when the team is (hopefully) in contention for a playoff spot would be tough to swallow. Getting value and moving on would be the most beneficial for the team. And I think the Brewers are at the point where guys that are in the Majors already or close is better than getting draft pick compensation.