Umpiring: Braves series, Bradley incident, etc. (Latest: game-ending call in NL wild card tiebreaker)

[danzig6767]

I'm sure i'm in the minority,but the whole manager running on the field to argue and get thrown out that we have in baseball seems kinda silly to me.You don't see football or basketball coaches charging on the field/court and then going through all the theatrics baseball managers do,which never accomplish anything either.

 

On the umps area,these guy are way to full of themselves.The way they bait players into bigger arguments so they can toss the player is unbelievable in that the league tolerates it.Do you ever see football refs tossing key players in a game for arguing?Fans pay alot of money to see baseball games and the players,unless a player is completely out of line,it's a bunch of nonsense to allow umps to throw players out on whatever whim they feel.The confrontational nature of many umps todays and that it's allowed to go on is one big peeves of mine about baseball.

[sbrylski]

I like the human element.

[bullox]

I'm sure i'm in the minority,but the whole manager running on the field to argue and get thrown out that we have in baseball seems kinda silly to me.You don't see football or basketball coaches charging on the field/court and then going through all the theatrics baseball managers do,which never accomplish anything either.

 

On the umps area,these guy are way to full of themselves.The way they bait players into bigger arguments so they can toss the player is unbelievable in that the league tolerates it.Do you ever see football refs tossing key players in a game for arguing?Fans pay alot of money to see baseball games and the players,unless a player is completely out of line,it's a bunch of nonsense to allow umps to throw players out on whatever whim they feel.The confrontational nature of many umps todays and that it's allowed to go on is one big peeves of mine about baseball.

NBA coaches get tossed quite a bit actually.

 

[pebadger]

Which human element would that be?

 

If it's the element of people performing a very tough job well under trying circumstances, I'm with you.

 

If it's all the various elements of human weakness (pettiness, vindictivness, possible selfish motivation) which too often seem to come into play, I'm not.

[trwi7]

I'm sure i'm in the minority,but the whole manager running on the field to argue and get thrown out that we have in baseball seems kinda silly to me.You don't see football or basketball coaches charging on the field/court and then going through all the theatrics baseball managers do,which never accomplish anything either.

 

On the umps area,these guy are way to full of themselves.The way they bait players into bigger arguments so they can toss the player is unbelievable in that the league tolerates it.Do you ever see football refs tossing key players in a game for arguing?Fans pay alot of money to see baseball games and the players,unless a player is completely out of line,it's a bunch of nonsense to allow umps to throw players out on whatever whim they feel.The confrontational nature of many umps todays and that it's allowed to go on is one big peeves of mine about baseball.

 

Are you serious? Tons of basketball coaches get ejected for arguing and football coaches are always getting in referees' ears on the sidelines.

[logan82]

I'm sure i'm in the minority,but the whole manager running on the field to argue and get thrown out that we have in baseball seems kinda silly to me.You don't see football or basketball coaches charging on the field/court and then going through all the theatrics baseball managers do,which never accomplish anything either.

In football there is usually a ref by the sideline. The coach will be in that guy's ear for most of the game in some cases. I think there is more interaction between refs in basketball and football, but it goes unnoticed because the refs are in closer proximity to the coaches more often and they don't have to out of their way to talk to them. I would be willing to bet in some cases there is a running dialog during games.

[Ennder]

Since Fielders incident with the ump we have been screwed pretty much nightly. I don't know what he said but it sure does seem like the umps got together and decided to take it out on the team.

[danzig6767]

I'm sure i'm in the minority,but the whole manager running on the field to argue and get thrown out that we have in baseball seems kinda silly to me.You don't see football or basketball coaches charging on the field/court and then going through all the theatrics baseball managers do,which never accomplish anything either.

 

On the umps area,these guy are way to full of themselves.The way they bait players into bigger arguments so they can toss the player is unbelievable in that the league tolerates it.Do you ever see football refs tossing key players in a game for arguing?Fans pay alot of money to see baseball games and the players,unless a player is completely out of line,it's a bunch of nonsense to allow umps to throw players out on whatever whim they feel.The confrontational nature of many umps todays and that it's allowed to go on is one big peeves of mine about baseball.

Are you serious? Tons of basketball coaches get ejected for arguing and football coaches are always getting in referees' ears on the sidelines.

 

Did you read my post?It's the charging on the field and much of the over the top behavior theatrics that baseball managers use when arguing.

Do basketball coaches charge on the middle of the court and cause a scene arguing for long stretches of time?Do football coaches charge on the center of the field making a scene?Do either one throw stuff when arguing or do silly nonsense like some baseball managers do kicking dirt or pulling up bases and throwing them?Ever see football coaches running on the field,arguing for 10 minutes while tossing around the first down markers or other idiotic stunts for attention?

In the vast vast majority of cases,football/basketball coaches stay on the sidelines and state their case to the officials without making some drawn out scene.It's not like i won't watch baseball because of this,i just simply think in most cases it's kinda silly and the managers look like dorks while doing it.I'll grant that the umps are quite far away,but in football,the coaches manage to call officials over during a stop in play and state their beef without a big scene and ejections.In the NBA officials are closer by,but ejections generally are quick and with much less drama between the two people.

 

[pretendastronaut]

Wow, not that I'm surprised by ESPN's shoddy reporting, but I just read this;

And now the Padres will be without the guy who has been their best hitter these last three months -- all because Milton Bradley erupted in a bonfire of rage, with just about no warning, and suffered a season-ending ACL tear to his right knee.

We have seen Bradley snap before, almost always after someone makes the mistake of pushing his buttons. But this latest incident set new standards in the annals of bizarre and inexplicable snap-outs.

It started, apparently, with a fifth-inning called strikeout that ended with Bradley's flipping his bat and initially refusing to leave the batter's box. Three innings later, with Bradley on first, first-base umpire Mike Winters and Bradley began debating that bat flip until, out of nowhere, Winters uttered the mysterious words that lit Bradley's fuse.

Next thing we knew, his manager, Bud Black, was sprinting toward his left fielder in a furious attempt to serve as the last line of defense between Bradley and the inevitable suspension that clearly would have awaited him if he'd ever made it to Winters' little patch of dirt.

Its like they didn't even watch the replay. That's about the most candy coated description you could give.

[trwi7]

I'm sure i'm in the minority,but the whole manager running on the field to argue and get thrown out that we have in baseball seems kinda silly to me.You don't see football or basketball coaches charging on the field/court and then going through all the theatrics baseball managers do,which never accomplish anything either.

 

On the umps area,these guy are way to full of themselves.The way they bait players into bigger arguments so they can toss the player is unbelievable in that the league tolerates it.Do you ever see football refs tossing key players in a game for arguing?Fans pay alot of money to see baseball games and the players,unless a player is completely out of line,it's a bunch of nonsense to allow umps to throw players out on whatever whim they feel.The confrontational nature of many umps todays and that it's allowed to go on is one big peeves of mine about baseball.

Are you serious? Tons of basketball coaches get ejected for arguing and football coaches are always getting in referees' ears on the sidelines.

Did you read my post?It's the charging on the field and much of the over the top behavior theatrics that baseball managers use when arguing.

Do basketball coaches charge on the middle of the court and cause a scene arguing for long stretches of time?Do football coaches charge on the center of the field making a scene?Do either one throw stuff when arguing or do silly nonsense like some baseball managers do kicking dirt or pulling up bases and throwing them?Ever see football coaches running on the field,arguing for 10 minutes while tossing around the first down markers or other idiotic stunts for attention?

In the vast vast majority of cases,football/basketball coaches stay on the sidelines and state their case to the officials without making some drawn out scene.It's not like i won't watch baseball because of this,i just simply think in most cases it's kinda silly and the managers look like dorks while doing it.I'll grant that the umps are quite far away,but in football,the coaches manage to call officials over during a stop in play and state their beef without a big scene and ejections.In the NBA officials are closer by,but ejections generally are quick and with much less drama between the two people.

 

 

So what managers are just supposed to stay in the dugout and yell from 50 feet away? What's the difference? They're still going to be holding up the game, they're still going to be animated, they're still going to be saying the same things an umpire isn't going to come over to them so they have to go out. A basketball referee will always be over by a coach who has a beef, same thing with a football referee.

[danzig6767]

I'm sure i'm in the minority,but the whole manager running on the field to argue and get thrown out that we have in baseball seems kinda silly to me.You don't see football or basketball coaches charging on the field/court and then going through all the theatrics baseball managers do,which never accomplish anything either.

 

On the umps area,these guy are way to full of themselves.The way they bait players into bigger arguments so they can toss the player is unbelievable in that the league tolerates it.Do you ever see football refs tossing key players in a game for arguing?Fans pay alot of money to see baseball games and the players,unless a player is completely out of line,it's a bunch of nonsense to allow umps to throw players out on whatever whim they feel.The confrontational nature of many umps todays and that it's allowed to go on is one big peeves of mine about baseball.

Are you serious? Tons of basketball coaches get ejected for arguing and football coaches are always getting in referees' ears on the sidelines.

Did you read my post?It's the charging on the field and much of the over the top behavior theatrics that baseball managers use when arguing.

Do basketball coaches charge on the middle of the court and cause a scene arguing for long stretches of time?Do football coaches charge on the center of the field making a scene?Do either one throw stuff when arguing or do silly nonsense like some baseball managers do kicking dirt or pulling up bases and throwing them?Ever see football coaches running on the field,arguing for 10 minutes while tossing around the first down markers or other idiotic stunts for attention?

In the vast vast majority of cases,football/basketball coaches stay on the sidelines and state their case to the officials without making some drawn out scene.It's not like i won't watch baseball because of this,i just simply think in most cases it's kinda silly and the managers look like dorks while doing it.I'll grant that the umps are quite far away,but in football,the coaches manage to call officials over during a stop in play and state their beef without a big scene and ejections.In the NBA officials are closer by,but ejections generally are quick and with much less drama between the two people.

 

So what managers are just supposed to stay in the dugout and yell from 50 feet away? What's the difference? They're still going to be holding up the game, they're still going to be animated, they're still going to be saying the same things an umpire isn't going to come over to them so they have to go out. A basketball referee will always be over by a coach who has a beef, same thing with a football referee.

 

Take the beef with the ump between innings.It's not like the current way of doing things accomplishes something for managers/umps except for delaying the game and the two involved getting camera time.We don't see umps decide,well hey,since you decided to run on the field,get 1 inch from my face,shake alot while screaming,toss out about 20 F-bombs,and kick some dirt on me,what the hell,i'll reverse the call for you.

On top of these often doughy out of shape managers in a to tight baseball uniform looking like dorks while delaying the game and almost never getting the call changed,i think the whole situations plays into the ego trip many umps seem to have.More than in any other sports,many these guys seem to look for and crave the attention getting arguments followed by the ejection of players/managers.You see them baiting both into larger arguments instead of shutting up and just umping the game.The whole face to face arguing like lunatics is ingrained into alot of umps,managers,and some players which leads to many stupid ejections.

In football,players often don't agree with a call and plead their case.That sport though manages to almost never see it's great players ejected for it,nor do they tolerate refs baiting players into bigger spats,they simply walk away.If say Mike Holmgren doesn't agree with a holding call,he doesn't charge on the field to the 30 yard line and and scream countless F-bombs an inch from the face of the guy who called it while delaying the game 10 minutes.He waits for a stop in play and calls the head ref over to %$**$ about it.If an NBA ref blows a call under the basket,Scott Skiles doesn't burst off the bench and charge on the center of the court,carrying on for however long he deems fit while him and the ref play the face to face spittle and scream dance.The ref usually T's up the coach and after 20-30 seconds,walks away.

My guess is baseball does things this way out of some sense of tradition and many fans enjoy these arguments.That's fine and even though i think generally it looks silly and i can almost see some managers practicing their histrionics in the mirror ahead of time like Arti Bucco on the Sopranos,it's not that huge of a deal.I just fail to see the point of it and am glad it doesn't happen and isn't accepted in other sports i like.

 

 

 

 

 

[RU Rah Rah]

I almost added something to this thread last night, when the word "fix" was being bandied about, but I figured that I had better sleep on it.

 

I completely understand the frustration with the umpiring, which has seemed almost comically inept in the past few games (if not longer), and I know that a normal gut reaction would be to complain about it. (I certainly have.) But, in the end, I am not convinced that player/manager griping about umpiring is very productive. Understandable? Yes, absolutely. But in the team's best interest? I doubt it. I think if you publicly berate a particular umpire -- or a particular crew, or umpires in general -- you might be even less likely to get calls.

 

No, I don't think that's right, and I'm not taking the umpires' point of view. I just think that's the way it is.

 

Miller is a perfect case in point. With the Brewers winning by 10 runs, there was absolutely no reason for him to be arguing balls and strikes (even though he did get hosed). Now he's going to be behind the dish for another couple of games with the same umpiring crew in place. Do you think that that crew is going to cut him (or the Brewers' pitchers) a break now? Probably not.

 

I do believe that umpires have biases, and that they can influence the outcome of particular plays. But I'm not convinced that their minds can work quickly enough to intentionally botch bang-bang plays. I don't think that they can process the action in front of them and think about their prejudices simultaneously. Those plays typically happen too quickly for someone to think, "Well, this might go either way, but I have a grudge against the runner because he showed me up last week in Philly, so I'm going to call him out."

[craigharmann]

Don mentioned this earlier, and I was shocked to see it as well. I counted at least 3 times that the umpire put his hand on Ned! That's a complete double standard! If the players and managers can not touch the umpire or it's a suspension, then it should be the same for the umpire touching the players or managers. The umpires are so full of themselves. No one notices when they make the right call. That's their job. But when they make a bogus call or they argue with players and managers, then they get noticed. I blame Leslie Nielsen and Naked Gun for the umpires being how they are.

[jeffy]

A few theories:

Umpires now do not like the Brewers because they are pissed that Ned ripped them to the "media".

Umpires don't like Brewers because they still connect them with Selig.

Umpires are getting lazy, because it is the end of the season and they don't think these games matter (evidence: the missed call on the tag out by Rivera last night, where the umpire did not bother getting in a position to see or anywhere near the play).

[JohnBriggs12]

I believe the Brewers argued last night because they felt that in Atlanta Bobby Cox influenced the umpiring the rest of the series by arguing balls and strikes on Friday night.

 

This time they wanted to get the jump on LaRussa. I also think that with less than a week to go, why not? They've been nice guys all year and where did it get them? The calls continue to go against them.

[billyhallfan]

well, i hate blaming games on umpires, i just think that is bush league so I'm not going to do it. Had cordero done his job on sunday, this wouldn't even be a topic. All of that being said, I'm glad that Yost is sticking up for his players, but with him going on these tangents, I think it is quite obvious that we aren't going to get any calls the rest of the way.

[dadofandrew]

Lack of effort is all it is. The home plate ump was so blocked, he might as well have flipped a coin.

 

Proper positioning takes planning and effort, however. The umps are tired and testy. Their poor performances in ATL, SD, and MIL seem to indicate they simply are playing out the string.

[MJLiverock]

I don't know if calling out the umps makes them hold a grudge or not. Bobby Cox has been extremely vocal during games and has been kicked out more than anyone. Over the last 15 years or so the Braves seemed to get a lot of calls, especially the benefit of the doubt on the strike zone for Glavine, Smoltz, and Maddux. Granted they are all hall of fame type pitchers but the plate seemed to be a bit wider when they were on the mound, just like the plate seemed a little narrower for Pujols last night. I think some of it boils down to respect for the player as much as holding a grudge. Maybe great players get the benefit of the doubt and the Brewers as a young team with a history of being bad don't get those calls yet. Maybe they never will unless Yost occasionally rides the ump in a hard fashion and makes a point of saying, "we might not get every call but every call shouldn' t go against us." It may have worked for guys like Cox or LaRussa. Hopefully in 10 years we can hear the broadcaster say, "the ump sure gave Gallardo that one", Color guy, "well you get calls like that when you are a Cy Young winner."

[logan82]

I blame Leslie Nielsen and Naked Gun for the umpires being how they are.

I didn't get to watch the game until later last night and I was going to say it looked like Frank Drebin(sp?) behind the plate.

 

I thought the strike zone was wide and low last night, but looked pretty consistent untill the 6th inning. I don't recall a pitcher getting the benifit of the doubt on a boderline at best pitch after putting 3 straight in the dirt. I am talking specifically about Fielder's at bat.

[SmartBall]

I don't mean to compare to a major league umpire but I have umped hardball for a few years now including some Senior League and Babe Ruth state championship games. Now these are just kids 15-18 but some of them can play ball and it can get hard. I understand blown calls. The part that really gets to me though is the attitude of the umps. People get upset and they argue, you can either explain your call, give them a warning, and walk away, or you can come out swinging and end up tossing people. I have tossed plenty of players and managers, but I do whatever is in my power to keep them in the game, and I feel like MLB umps just enjoy being part of the show.

[logan82]

I really didn't like how Cuzzi practically chased Fielder back to the dugout. If a guy is walking away, just let it go.

[Shawn Sabatke]

Answer me this: Why is it in football, the referees form a scrum to come up with the correct calls on a routine basis? While in baseball, aside from a check swing or a close home run, each ump seems to be God in his little area of the field. Seems to me that while umps watch certain areas on each play and not the play itself, they could at least show that they are willing to get help to make the right call. That ump Monday night actually moved behind the play as it was happening instead of in front of it like he should have. Maybe the first base or second base ump saw something different.

[Fatter than Joey]

Maybe the first base or second base ump saw something different.

 

Generally speaking -- unlike in FB, the umpires have other things that are going on, on a FB the umpires have to shift around -- the 3rd base ump has to make sure players touch bases etc. I don't think that there are going to be many plays where 2 umpires are going to be looking at the same play unlike in FB.

[watertown28]

I really didn't like how Cuzzi practically chased Fielder back to the dugout. If a guy is walking away, just let it go.

I said that same exact thing last night...I think the Ump WANTED to toss feilder out of the game...how many times have we seen this with brewers players where the ump keeps jawing at the players even though its clear that the player is done arguing?

 

[goirish2107]

You know, when the games really mattered in the ALDS between the Red Sox and Yankees a few years back, the umps got together on more than one call (I'm thinking of a particular game) to make sure they got it correct. That is the only time I have seen that occur in baseball, although I'm not looking for it. I'm not saying that they should be conferring and whatnot in April and May, but come on, a game with two teams in a playoff chase (Mil and Atl)? You need to be trying a little harder.