Tom Haudricourt getting a little snippy with fans

[fondybrewfan]

http://blogs.jsonline.com/brewers/

 

In my opinion it is a long time coming. There is a reason why Ned does something all the time, regardless if we like it or not. When it works no one says anything, when it doesnt Ned gets ripped on. Some of the critizism is warranted some isn't. Seems like Tom is really getting irritated

[RU Rah Rah]

From his original blog post (the one that generated all of the negative commentary, apparently):

 

"How come nobody's bashing manager Ned Yost tonight for removing starter Carlos Villanueva after six innings when he was pitching brilliantly?. . . Yost pulled Villanueva for pinch-hitter Laynce Nix in the seventh because the Brewers had a runner on second with two outs and were losing, 1-0, to Tim Hudson, who was giving no quarter. They took a shot at tying the game and Nix grounded out, but it was still the right move."

 

Jeez, you're right, Tom. Ned really went out on a huge limb in pulling Villy in that situation.

[Ennder]

Yost is a bad manager so I find it hard to get mad at someone for pointing it out. Fans of opposing teams have pointed it out, sabermetric web sites like thehardballtimes and baseballprospectus have pointed it out and knowledgable people here on this site have pointed it out.

 

I get the fact that he's our manager and the gut instinct is to back him up because of it but the fact is he is a below average manager and we hopefully can do better.

[homer]

Maybe he is a bad manager but the Brewers are still a game ahead of their Pythagorean win/loss record.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/standings?date=20070922&type=exp&br=3&year=2007&column=gamesBehind&order=false&st=2

[trwi7]

Tom Haudricourt, finding new and interesting ways to get more readers.

[Trombone482]

I am so sick of this talk! Fans can say he is a bad manager and you can look at stats can say that but the facts are clear. Ned has the backing of Mark Attanasio, Doug Melvin and as far as we can tell the players. He is thought of is a positive way it seems by most other MLB managers. So I will say this again lets cut him slack. Its rediculous when you hear people saying they miss the days of Jerry Royster. Please, Royster was pathetic and our team was awful. We are only a 1 1/2 back and the team needs all the support that we can give them untill the season is over. GO BREWERS!!!

[trwi7]

I am so sick of this talk! Fans can say he is a bad manager and you can look at stats can say that but the facts are clear. Ned has the backing of Mark Attanasio, Doug Melvin and as far as we can tell the players. He is thought of is a positive way it seems by most other MLB managers. So I will say this again lets cut him slack. Its rediculous when you hear people saying they miss the days of Jerry Royster. Please, Royster was pathetic and our team was awful. We are only a 1 1/2 back and the team needs all the support that we can give them untill the season is over. GO BREWERS!!!

 

Way to put words in people's mouths. Nobody has ever said they miss the days of Jerry Royster. And because Yost has the so called backing of players and management means that he is immune to criticism if he makes a stupid move? That's ridiculous.

[jason21nl]

I am so sick of this talk! Fans can say he is a bad manager and you can look at stats can say that but the facts are clear. Ned has the backing of Mark Attanasio, Doug Melvin and as far as we can tell the players. He is thought of is a positive way it seems by most other MLB managers. So I will say this again lets cut him slack. Its rediculous when you hear people saying they miss the days of Jerry Royster. Please, Royster was pathetic and our team was awful. We are only a 1 1/2 back and the team needs all the support that we can give them untill the season is over. GO BREWERS!!!

 

did anyone say that they miss they days of Jerry Royster? if they did, I must have missed that. Oh, by people saying Yost sucks doesn't mean they aren't supporting the Brewers.

[Trombone482]

It may have not been here, it may have been on Milwaukeebrewers.com, but the fact is that it gets tiring of people second guessing the managers all the time. People say it all the time that you are not going to win every game. Does Ned put his guys out there trying to lose? No, he put them out there because he believes that they are the best option for that situtation. Thats all I'm saying.

[biedergb]

"Yost went to the same Linebrink-Turnbow set-up formula in Houston on Wednesday but those guys didn't get the job done and the Brewers ended up losing in 10 innings. People have been crushing Yost for not sticking with Dave Bush, who was pitching well but had to run the bases in the top of the seventh and might have not been as sharp."

 

It's obvious Tom doesn't read BF.net either. If he did, he would realize that no one criticized him here for not leaving in Dave Bush. We questioned why Dave either hit for himself or wasn't pinch run for? We also questioned why Turnbow came in with runners on base after having pitched the night before. In fact in the IGT some people were happy (albeit confused) that Bush came out before having a Dave Bush moment (big inning where everything is hit hard).

[trwi7]

but the fact is that it gets tiring of people second guessing the managers all the time.

If you notice we call out Ned right when he makes the decisions, this isn't second guessing he is called out right away when we think he makes a bad decision.

Does Ned put his guys out there trying to lose?

No but he doesn't put the team in the best position to win.

No, he put them out there because he believes that they are the best option for that situtation.

And when he thinks it's the best option and others disagree we should just keep our mouths shut because we're not managers and Yost has the support from the management and players according to you.

[Ennder]

Does Yost have the backing of the players though? I mean they aren't going to say our manager stinks we need a new one, they are more or less forced into supporting him whether they like it or not, its called being a professional.

[trwi7]

Does Yost have the backing of the players though? I mean they aren't going to say our manager stinks we need a new one, they are more or less forced into supporting him whether they like it or not, its called being a professional.

 

I don't think there is any way to prove that players are in favor of their manager or not because you'll usually get the usual lip service. However after the Houston game I believe I was listening to the post game show and they brought on a former Brewer whose name escapes me at the moment (somebody fill it in if you know) and he said that in the back of their minds players are like managers and go through moves in their minds too. So I think it may be fair to say that many players weren't happy with Ned after game 3 in the Houston series.

[adamb100]

I wouldnt call Ned a bad Manager but he's not a great one either.

[thebruce44]

Does Ned put his guys out there trying to lose? No, he put them out there because he believes that they are the best option for that situtation. Thats all I'm saying.

 

While this discussion probably belongs in the Ned Yost thread, I would just like to say that I agree that Yost is putting players in that he believes are the best option for that situation. The problem is that while he may believe they are the best player for the situation, sometimes they are not. That is why Yost is criticized.

 

I cut him slack for a long time and attributed much of the dislike for him to fan overreaction, but even I switched to the fire him camp about a month ago.

 

Ned Yost's job is to manage this team and make the correct decisions. If he can not do that he will be criticized just as I would be at my job if I made the incorrect decision. If I were to make too many incorrect decisions, I would be fired. Its how the world works, and I don't need a writer for a poorly written paper to act like I am out of line for wanting him replaced at the end of the season with someone who will do a better job.

[owbc]

The Yost debate will NEVER be resolved.

 

The problem is that there are two pools of Brewers fans with fundamentally different views on how much talent is on the team.

 

I'm generalizing, but:

 

Pool A: The Brewers are a very talented team this year. The 24-10 start may have been an exaggeration, but if properly managed, this team would win at least 90 games this year. The Brewers have more talent than the Cubs and because of this, they should be ahead, if it wasn't for the mistakes made by Yost (and some bad fortune too). Yost has made terrible moves repeatedly that have cost the Brewers games that they would have won with a different manager. Yost is preventing the Brewers from making the playoffs.

 

Pool B: The Brewers are talented, but are a very young team and prone to mistakes. The Brewers have the potential to be division winners, but this season they have shown a number of repeated flaws: inconsistent starting pitching, a bullpen prone to blowing leads, an offense that relies too much on home runs, and shaky defense. Ned Yost has certainly made mistakes (like all managers), but the real issue is that the Cubs have more talent than the Brewers, which is why the Brewers were unable to maintain their 24-10 start while the Cubs have improved, as both team are moving to their correct positions over the course of 162 games. The Brewers' current playoff situation is only partially due to Yost.

 

I do not see how compromise is possible when people are judging the talent on the Brewers so differently.

[biedergb]

More TH fodder

 

"For some reason, critics never hold the players accountable. Just the manager. I've never understood it and I never will."

 

Um, Tom, we've been on Hall, Jenkins, Turnbow, etc all season. But the manager keeps putting this guys in at key situations, therefore our attention has gone back to the manager.

 

And reading his blog this morning, my goodness, you would have thought he was Ned's father or something. I guess asking him questions got him a little testy. Maybe Tom was tired after hanging out with the players in the clubhouse last night.

[Ennder]

I do not see how compromise is possible when people are judging the talent on the Brewers so differently.

 

I think the two teams talent is pretty close. I judge Yost by the fact he has repeatedly put the team in a position to lose with not just marginal decisions but downright terrible ones.

 

Things like having Mench face a righty with the game on the line when he is probably the worst hitter on the entire team against righties. I just don't see how you can defend something like that. Yost has made at least 5 of those types of horrible decisions in just the past 30 days.

 

Hardicourt can be pissy all he wants to be but there is a reason why the fans are upset and its not just trying to blame the teams problems on the manager.

[Mr QL]

This guy doesn't actually get paid for this does he? I hope not.

[dpapo]

When the moves work, the manager is a genius

By Tom Haudricourt

Friday, Sep 21 2007, 10:36 PM

Atlanta - How come nobody's bashing manager Ned Yost tonight for removing starter Carlos Villanueva after six innings when he was pitching brilliantly?

Oh, that's right, relievers Scott Linebrink, Derrick Turnbow and Francisco Cordero did their job, each throwing a scoreless inning as the Brewers pulled out a critical 4-1 victory.

Yost pulled Villanueva for pinch-hitter Laynce Nix in the seventh because the Brewers had a runner on second with two outs and were losing, 1-0, to Tim Hudson, who was giving no quarter. They took a shot at tying the game and Nix grounded out, but it was still the right move.

Here's the point we're trying to make here. Yost went to the same Linebrink-Turnbow set-up formula in Houston on Wednesday but those guys didn't get the job done and the Brewers ended up losing in 10 innings. People have been crushing Yost for not sticking with Dave Bush, who was pitching well but had to run the bases in the top of the seventh and might have not been as sharp.

Nobody would have said a thing had the relievers done the job that night and the Brewers won. Yost only gets crushed when he makes moves and they don't work.

We're not trying to rub it in here or be an apologist for Yost. The point is this: when the players do their job, the manager is a genius. When they don't do their job, the manager is a dolt.

For some reason, critics never hold the players accountable. Just the manager. I've never understood it and I never will.

So, for tonight, Yost has gone from idiot to Einstein. It's the fate of every manager, who have to depend on their players to do their jobs.

Somebody might want to pass along that baseball fact of life to Mark Belling, who apparently thinks those of us covering the team don't ask Yost the tough questions. And gosh knows baseball experts like him are never wrong. Who am I to quibble with astute baseball minds such as his? I see him in the clubhouse all the time.

Not.

 

That's the article that everyone is reacting strongly to. First, it's not a good idea to be critical and go at it with your customers/readers. Just because he doesn't think that the manager doesn't have much influence on wins and losses means it's true. It's fine if that is how you feel, many people here feel the same way, however I think that he does affect how he does his job.

I think all of this came to a head after the Houston game on Wednesday night when he didn't ask Yost why he put in Wise. Now, no matter how you feel about Yost or the move to put in Wise, that was on the one question most people had afterwards. After a number of people wrote Mr. Haudricourt asking him that question, he asked Yost and got an answer. At least that is how he seem to write the stories.

Mr. Haudricourt job is to cover the team, ask the questions and provide information for his readers. Maybe he's buddy-buddy with Yost. Maybe he just doesn't like all the questions and/or criticisms he gets from fans, whatever the case his job is to provide information for his readers.

I do think that one of the problems of the Brewers beat writers over the years is their attitude towards the fans. Look at the Rick Braun chat where he thinks it's a waste of his time. Drew Olson seem to have a similar attitude toward chats when he worked at the newspaper.

No longer living in the area and being able to read different writers, I can say that I think Haudricourt does an okay job, but he doesn't provide as much information as he should and probably can. And to be fair, over the years people have not been happy with the TV announcers, but overall I would say that they have done a pretty good job.

As far as the article above itself, if you are going to make an argument that fans are putting too much blame on Yost, then at least compare two similar situations. And, I also heard the same argument from Drew Olson, that fans are blaming Yost, but not the players. I'm sorry, but that is just plain stupid and shows that they don't have a clue about the fans. Anyone who read this sites knows that just isn't the case.

My suggesting to Mr. Haudricourt would be to do your job and remember what your job duties actually are.

[Fatter than Joey]

The problem is that there are two pools of Brewers fans with fundamentally different views on how much talent is on the team.

 

I have thought Yost has been a bad manager for about 3 years -- it is really independent of the Brewers talent, or even the Cubs.

[dadofandrew]

This guy doesn't actually get payed for this does he?

 

Irony is so yummy.

[adambr2]

I am stunned how anyone could think there is a lack of talent on the team. We have the likely NL MVP batting cleanup, the ROY batting third, who probably would be an MVP candidate if he was up all year. We have an All-Star SS. We have the first 20/20 Brewer since Burnitz who is hitting over .300, a catcher hitting over .280 rather than .210 like we've gotten used to over the years, and a pretty successful platoon in LF. Hall and Weeks have struggled this year, but Weeks still has that OBP right where we want it for him as a leadoff man, and I don't think anyone can deny that Weeks and Hall, especially Weeks, are loaded with talent. Ryan Theriot is hyped so much in Chicago, yet he's batting .270 with absolutely no power. He'd be run out of our lineup.

 

The rotation features a longtime ace in Sheets, the quality starts leader in 2005 and 2006 in Capuano, (struggled, obviously, and removed), the reigning NLCS MVP, one of the best young arms in the game in Gallardo, and another solid young starter in Villanueva.

 

The bullpen includes the new save record holder in Cordero and All-Star, the 2005 All-Star closer, and a solid acquisition in Linebrink.

 

If we don't make the playoffs, it's not because there wasn't enough talent on this team to work with. It's just not.

[molitor fan]

"Those of you that think you know it all are very annoying to those of us who do"

 

--- paperweight on my now-retired uncle's desk from about 20 years ago.

 

 

If we don't make the playoffs, it's not because there wasn't enough talent on this team to work with. It's just not.

 

and adambr2 speaks the truth....

[giffted1]

I'm kind of relieved to see that I'm not the only one with that kind of thinking.

 

The Yost debate is at the point where either you like Yost, don't like Yost, or think it doesn't really matter who's managing the team, and there's nothing Tom or anyone else can say that will change people's minds.