Sheets to the Yankees proposal

[MoneyballMan]

I noticed Billingsley and Kemp for Sheets in an early post - I personally think you're overvaluing Sheets, but if for some miracle the Dodgers would do this deal I'd jump on that in a heartbeat. Billingsley is already as good as Sheets or better (and younger/cheaper) and Kemp is going to be a very solid corner OF. Only reason holding him back in LA is depth. If DM made a deal like this, he should go directly to the GM hall of fame.

[colbyjack]

Dealing Sheets is a tricky proposition, which leads me to believe that he'll be staying put. I can't believe that his deal is up after next year, as it seems as though he just signed what at the time was a big 4-year extension just last offseason.

 

People seem to be split on what he's worth, with some perfectly comfortable getting good but not great prospects such as Tony Butler and Ryan Feierabend in return and shooting for guys like Phillip Hughes, Joba Chamberlain and Chad Billingsley.

 

If the deal is for players like Butler and Feierabend, thanks but no thanks. Even Jeff Clement and Wladimir Balentien would be second and third options if I were dealing Sheets, and if that's the best you can do, you don't trade him, hoping that he manages to keep himself on the field next year. Heck, I'd take Sheets from this past season over all of the names mentioned in this paragraph.

 

If you're talking to Seattle, Adam Jones' name has to come up. He's a true CF and is clearly blocked by Ichiro. Now I'm sure the M's would love to have Jones in either LF or RF, as Ibanez is best suited as a DH and Jose Guillen is a FA IIRC. However, that is type of name I would be looking for, as Jones is one of the top prospects in the game and has nothing left to prove at AAA.

 

Or how about one of either Chad Cordero or Carl Crawford, two names that have been rumored to be avaialble that have been tossed around quite a bit around here in the past? I'm not sure if either team would bite since Sheets would be a FA after next season, but that is the type of talent I would target.

 

And you know Melvin would be looking for big-league guys, and it would help to fill a few holes such as the ones in the bullpen, starting rotation, catching and/or a corner OF spot (or even a CF to allow Hall to slide over to LF...statistics being thrown aside for one second).

 

I would also do my best to deal Sheets to an AL club. For one, you wouldn't have to worry about facing this guy, which always does concern me, and two, you don't have to try and sell his bat http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif.

[sbrylski]

Colby, you don't think much of Clement? I don't know a lot about him defensively, but the guy has been a total OBP stud throught the minors, other than his one blemish last season at AAA when he played hurt. I like Adam Jones too, definately, but Clement fills a much bigger need, IMO. And then I wanted one of the "good but not great" pitchers along with him.

 

If we were to trade Sheets, I would be quite happy with a Clement/Jones+Butler/Feierabend deal. But I'm not going as far to say we should trade Sheets either.

[colbyjack]

I actually like Clement quite a bit, but I don't think I trade for him as a centerpiece of a deal for Sheets.

 

You mentioned his keen eye, and he also has very good power potential, but he has only thrown out 26% and 27% of opposing baserunners in his first two professional seasons, and most scouts don't think his defense is going to get any better (quite the opposite actually).

 

Neither Butler nor Feierabend interests me relative to what I believe the Brewers would look for. Butler is years away, even if he is a local favorite, and Feierabend doesn't profile as much more than a 4/5 starter if that. I'd be tempted by a deal for Clement if another top name was involved, preferably a pitcher, but the M's really don't have that much talent at the top.

 

And I'm not so sure Jones isn't a "need." The team is going to need an OF of some sort next year, and since Hall was originally thought of as a LF by Melvin and co., having Jones play CF with Hall and Hart flanking him isn't that crazy of an idea IMO (and yes, I realize Hall's value decreases the further he moves away from SS, CF, etc., I'm just bringing it up as a realistic possiblity).

 

One name that jumps out to me is Ervin Santana. He clearly had a horrible year, but his stats aside from the number of base hits he allowed this year weren't that far off from his career norms. He's a guy that I would be asking my scouts about trying to figure out why and how he fell apart this year. The Angels always seem to have a wealth of bullpen arms, so I think my gut feeling would be to approach them for a possible Santana/Justin Speier package.

[BrewCrewForever]

I don't think the Yankees are willing to part with Hughes or Jaba. And they ecspecially wouldn't trade them both.

[mothershipconnection]

I can't believe that his deal is up after next year, as it seems as though he just signed what at the time was a big 4-year extension just last offseason.

 

Yeah, seems like just yesterday a "certain somebody" was telling us to expect a major announcement around the time of fanfest.

[EbbaStClaire]

I would not trade Sheets at this time for the same reasons others wouldn't. The Brewers are not a playoff team without a No. 1 and since he has had so many injuries, although not arm related, his trade value is not high. I would take a different tact. Offer to tear up his contract for next year and try to sign him for 3 years at $15 M/yr. If he has a great year in the next two years consider trading when his value would be high. That approach wouldn't break the bank, he gets an extra $4M next year and the Brewers get a good pitcher for three more years.

[endaround]

I think people are underestimating the value of starting pitching, even one with some injury issues. The Brewers gave up a 22 year old who dominated AAA to get Vargas. Yes Eveland has work ethic issues, but he has a huge amount of talent and the Brewes sent that off for a guy who may give you 6 innings every 5th day and a 5.50 ERA if you're lucky.

[Roscoe Chill]

Offer to tear up his contract for next year and try to sign him for 3 years at $15 M/yr.

 

So, you're saying give him a two year extension at $17 million per season. If he'd take it great, I guess, as my reasoning for trading him has just as much to do with the fact that I don't see him pitching in Milwaukee beyond 2008 anyway, as it does his injury issues.

 

I guess I don't understand why it's OK to trade Sexson under the same scenario, but trade Sheets? No way! Sure the clubs are at different places in the grand scheme of things from back then to now, but having Sheets break down in "our year" in 2008 and another finish around .500, and they're all of a sudden heading down 'Rebuild Lane' again...I'm suggesting going down 'Reload Lane'

 

It might be thinking outside the box trading their best pitcher, but the A's were worshipped around these parts for what they did with Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder...I guess I don't see much of a difference, other than the fact Sheets hasn't been available to pitch 1/3 of the time, which should make the situation even more acceptable in my opinion.

[Roscoe Chill]

I think people are underestimating the value of starting pitching, even one with some injury issues. The Brewers gave up a 22 year old who dominated AAA to get Vargas. Yes Eveland has work ethic issues, but he has a huge amount of talent and the Brewes sent that off for a guy who may give you 6 innings every 5th day and a 5.50 ERA if you're lucky.

 

Of course they also gave up a better Major League starting pitcher in the same deal, so...

[mothershipconnection]

I guess I don't understand why it's OK to trade Sexson under the same scenario, but trade Sheets? No way! Sure the clubs are at different places in the grand scheme of things from back then to now, but having Sheets break down in "our year" in 2008 and another finish around .500, and they're all of a sudden heading down 'Rebuild Lane' again...I'm suggesting going down 'Reload Lane'

 

I think the big difference is that back then we sucked, had 10 holes, AND had Prince Fielder 2 years away. The Sexson deal addressed needs in the current and future. It's not likely we get that now since it's not as easy to upgrade as it was then because we actually have major league players pretty much everywhere. We wouldn't make the Sexson deal today (without Prince behind him) because the guys we got wouldn't be an upgrade. Moeller would be a definite backup, Spivey would be a backup, Cappy's wouldn't be as attractive, we already have a Craig Counsell, Overbay would be OK, and DLR would be less attractive since we have SP prospects ready to step up. Today we need bigger prospects and better players to make it worth it (except stud relievers, which wouldn't be enough).

[Roscoe Chill]

I totally understand that response to the Sexson example. And I agree to a point. However, what about what the A's (the franchise so many on here want the Brewers to model themselves after) and what they did with both Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson?

[colbyjack]

I remember there were quite a few people that were incredibly upset that Richie Sexson was dealt at the time he was, with quite a few citing that the team always traded away each and every good player they ever had. It's hard to make the Sexson comparison now in hindsight, as some are opposed to Sheets just as some were opposed to Sexson at the time.

 

Although I agree with your point about the A's in relationship to Mulder and Hudson. The A's knew they would lose both (and eventually Zito), and made sure to get the most they could for them when they could. It's funny, because at the time more people were high on Dan Meyer than they were Dan Haren.

[Gopher74]

I'm sure that they would start laughing. Heck, I am laughing just reading it. I love Sheets, and a HUGE Brewers fan, but I know I wouldn't even do this if I were the Yankees.

 

I'm just curious, but what about Chamberlin and Hughes has impressed you that much that you wouldn't even consider trading ONE of them for a guy who can clearly be a Cy Young candidate if only he can remain healthy? Seriously, other than minor league numbers, what have they done? Chamberlin hasn't even pitched 25 innings and your acting as though he's the next Nolan Ryan or something. I don't think this in unrealistic at all considering the Yankees are always in win-now mode and Sheets can probably help them more than Chamberlin or Hughes could. If I were the Brewers, I would not consider trading Sheets unless both players were involved. I maybe overvaluing him, but at least he;s proven what kind of pitcher he can be. I'd sign him for another 3 year deal for about $9 million a year if he'd take it.

The Yanks dismissed the mere suggestion that they'd be willing to trade Hughes for Carlos Lee last year. They've insisted they're not going to trade youth anymore for short term fixes, and BOTH those players are guys with HUGE talent. I mean, we're not getting ONE for Sheets, much less two. There's just no question about it.

 

And as for Sheets taking 9 million a year, that's just incredibly unrealistic. You MAY get him to sign for 12 million a year, but that's even a long shot. If he gives us a home town discount, you're looking at 5/65.

 

And clearly you're not overvaluing Sheets given that low ball offer. I think you're undervaluing Job and Hughes.

 

Lets put it this way. Would you trade Gallardo for Sheets? Now would you trade TWO guys of his caliber for Ben Sheets? Would you trade 750,000K in salaries of two of your core players for 11 million for an injury prone player? Now I love Sheets, have defended him to the death, but if we could get one of those, I'd be thrilled. If we could get both, Brian Cashmen would likely be fired.

[Gopher74]

Offer to tear up his contract for next year and try to sign him for 3 years at $15 M/yr.

 

So, you're saying give him a two year extension at $17 million per season. If he'd take it great, I guess, as my reasoning for trading him has just as much to do with the fact that I don't see him pitching in Milwaukee beyond 2008 anyway, as it does his injury issues.

 

I guess I don't understand why it's OK to trade Sexson under the same scenario, but trade Sheets? No way! Sure the clubs are at different places in the grand scheme of things from back then to now, but having Sheets break down in "our year" in 2008 and another finish around .500, and they're all of a sudden heading down 'Rebuild Lane' again...I'm suggesting going down 'Reload Lane'

 

It might be thinking outside the box trading their best pitcher, but the A's were worshipped around these parts for what they did with Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder...I guess I don't see much of a difference, other than the fact Sheets hasn't been available to pitch 1/3 of the time, which should make the situation even more acceptable in my opinion.

First of all, 150 and 140 innings isn't 1/3 of the time. It's about 2/3rds of the time. Very big difference.

 

Second, we traded a power hitting first basemen on a 100 loss team. You DON'T see how that's different from trading a Ace on a team with playoff aspirations?

Third, how exactly are we in a rebuilding process if we were to struggle to .500 next year? Given the depth of starting pitching, namely Villy and Gallardo, I guess I don't see us going .500 even if Sheets only starts 15 games.

 

And fourth, how has Oakland done since they made those trades?

 

[Gopher74]

I'm not sure. With the depth the Brewers currently have, starting pitching doesn't seem like a glaring need. Yo is an ace in the making as he's shown, so he basically replaces Ben.

Yo's going to be good. Villanueva will probably be good. Suppan will probably be servicable. Parra could conceivably be good, but injuries are a serious concern. Bush, Vargas, and Capuano have been bounced in and out of the rotation this year. To me, that doesn't scream "depth", at least not where I wouldn't be looking for an upgrade.

 

I think it's a pretty safe assumption that Suppan is going to bounce back quite a bit this year.

 

His last three years he had a average ERA of 3.95. This year, as a result of fatigue from pitching in the WS, or just getting acclimated to the new surroundings, his ERA jumped to 4.62. I think it's pretty safe to assume he'll come back towards his norm next year.

Capuano led the league the last two years in QS's, won 18 two years ago and was an AS last year. Again, should rebound next year.

Villanueva had an ERA of 2.10 this year, 3.63 last year as a starter,

Yo's a ace in the making as someone else said. Had an ERA in the mid 2's save for one blowup in Coors.

 

Beyond that you've got Bush, Vargas, and Parra. I don't think starting pitching is a point of emphasis. I think that distinction should be reserved for the bullpen.

 

[Roscoe Chill]

First of all, 150 and 140 innings isn't 1/3 of the time. It's about 2/3rds of the time. Very big difference.

 

Go back and read what I wrote, and then what you wrote.

[Gopher74]

Add that to the fact that we don't really have any quality starters ready in the minors. Inman is gone, obviously, Jackson hasn't impressed much of anybody, Rogers has never been able to stay healthy, so to say we have a lot of depth is a little off, I'd say. I think if we get 4 extra picks from losing CoCo and Linebrick, at least three of them have to go towards pitching.

No, it's not off at all. We're talking about at the big league level first of all, and at the big league level, we've got 8 starters.

 

Second, we don't have a lot of upper level talent ready, however, that's very much different from not having any. When you graduate 3 very good pitchers to the big leagues, you're not likely to have a lot of upper level prospects ready. We do however have a few in the lower levels, namely Jeremy Jeffress, and while I know it's just AWFUL that a 20 year old kid would smoke a little pot, he's got big time potential.

 

And finally, what do you mean by "never"? His one injury? Yea, he hasn't been around that long, but you're vastly overstating the case with him.

 

[TheBrewer]

Obviously this is different but in my fantasy league keeper league, Sheets isn't exactly over valued. He isn't worth that much. I compare that to real life because teams don't want a guy who's super brittle which it seems Sheets is nowadays. He's labeled as injury prone in my league, and I would say that for real life also.

 

He hasn't been an "ace" much less pitched 200 innings since what 2004 in his almost Cy Young type year. I say he hasn't been an ace because in my mind we think of Sheets as an "ace" our #1 starter. We take that ace number one guy mentality and because we have that mentality we think he's gonna get a Phillip Hughes and Chamberlain. He's not going to fetch that much. He's probably not even an ace to other clubs. Unless you get some GM that has been in love with Sheets all his life and wanted to draft him, and wanted to trade for him every season.... To other clubs he's a guy who has the POTENTIAL to pitch 200IP MAYBE and he MAY post an ERA under 3.50. But with his recent years there not going to pay that for a guy that MAY do that.

 

Ending.. in my league I own Phillip Hughes.. I wouldn't trade Hughes for a guy that MAY be an ace in Sheets. Hughes COULD be an ace next season in all honesty, just like Sheets MAY be an ace and pitch 200IP. But in Hughes you get a guy thats super young, super cheap, and injury free.

[Gopher74]

Obviously this is different but in my fantasy league keeper league, Sheets isn't exactly over valued. He isn't worth that much. I compare that to real life because teams don't want a guy who's super brittle which it seems Sheets is nowadays. He's labeled as injury prone in my league, and I would say that for real life also.

 

He hasn't been an "ace" much less pitched 200 innings since what 2004 in his almost Cy Young type year. I say he hasn't been an ace because in my mind we think of Sheets as an "ace" our #1 starter. We take that ace number one guy mentality and because we have that mentality we think he's gonna get a Phillip Hughes and Chamberlain. He's not going to fetch that much. He's probably not even an ace to other clubs. Unless you get some GM that has been in love with Sheets all his life and wanted to draft him, and wanted to trade for him every season.... To other clubs he's a guy who has the POTENTIAL to pitch 200IP MAYBE and he MAY post an ERA under 3.50. But with his recent years there not going to pay that for a guy that MAY do that.

 

Ending.. in my league I own Phillip Hughes.. I wouldn't trade Hughes for a guy that MAY be an ace in Sheets. Hughes COULD be an ace next season in all honesty, just like Sheets MAY be an ace and pitch 200IP. But in Hughes you get a guy thats super young, super cheap, and injury free.

The guy who missed a couple months this year, his first in the big years is injury free? Unless you're talking about shoulder/elbow issues, in which case, so is Sheets.