2008 Centerfielder and Bill Hall; Team Defensive Issues

[jeffy]

It's interesting to think where the team would be if they had an average defense playing behind the pitchers.

 

Sure, but then think about where they would be with, say, an average number of home runs.

[endaround]

Thats the thing though. No one is saying dump Braun so Counsell can play. Its about taking the players here and moving them into positions that better match their abilities.

[jeffy]

Sure, and it would seem to be sensible to consider it. But, I'll be very surprised if they move Braun to the outfield and Hall to 3b. Since I don't follow the minor leagues, I didn't understand the big push to move Hall when it looked like Koskie would not be back...but now I wonder why they did not move Braun to OF, instead.

One thing I wonder about is how do these guys get this far and not learn defense? Why don't they learn that in the minors, college, etc. Wasn't Braun a SS at one time...how could he get through so many levels of baseball at that position with bad defense. Same for Weeks at second.

[rluzinski]

One thing I wonder about is how do these guys get this far and not learn defense? Why don't they learn that in the minors, college, etc.

 

Every player has different skill sets. Melvin has found a bunch of guys who are great offensively but leave a lot to be desired defensively.

[logan82]

One thing I wonder about is how do these guys get this far and not learn defense? Why don't they learn that in the minors, college, etc.

 

Every player has different skill sets. Melvin has found a bunch of guys who are great offensively but leave a lot to be desired defensively.

 

I am going out on a limb here a little since my knowlege of the minors is limited, but I believe most of our players were sort of rushed to the bigs since we were so terrible in Milwaukee. Maybe Hart is a quick learner or just naturally gifted, but he looks like a lot more polished player than any of our other young players. Of course the outfield is easier than the infield, but he has had at least 2 position changes throughout his minor league career.

 

I think Weeks, Hardy and Braun would have benifited from one more year in the minors, but we didn't have anybody in the majors who could even compare to them.

[monty57]

Why do people believe the Brewers are against moving players? Hart was a 1B, then a 3B, then played all OF positions. Hall's played four positions. Jenkins moved from LF to RF for Lee. In fact, they routinely rotate outfielders. They let Miller try 1B! Dillon plays a new position every night. Rottino played nine postions in a game (okay, that was in the minors, but they did move him from IF to OF to Catcher). In the majors, players don't change positions all that often, and when they do, it's usually due to age catching up with them. I'd guess the Brewers are just as apt to change a player's position as anyone.

 

That said, I don't see Braun moving from third next season. Like Weeks, he'll probably never be a good fielder, but he hopefully will be able to come close to average. He did grow up at SS, and hasn't had much time to adjust to 3B. I'd agree with the posters who said that next season's starting OF will be Hart (RF), Hall (CF) and a Gross/Dillon platoon in LF. This LF combo should put up similar numbers to this year's Jenkins/Mench combo for around $10 million less. How they spend this money is for another thread.

[bando1234]

Personally I would like to see Hall in in Right, Hart in center & Braun in Left. Of course I want Chone Figgins at 3rd & leading off. Highly unlikly but thats what I would like to see.I think 3rd is the position to target over the offseason. Although the bullpen needs a lot of work too.

[Ennder]

I dunno, when Chones BABIP drops back down and he's hitting .285 with a .345 OBP I'm not sure if his offense would help with the fact he's not a good fielder. I wouldn't mind having a huge OBP guy at the top of the order but I'm not sure he is it.

[dadofandrew]

They made some nice points on ESPN last night, how George Brett and Wade Boggs were not good defenders either when they started, but were above average in the course of their careers.

 

Many folks simply forget how tough it is to play MLB. The casual fan wants to rush the kids up, then are unhappy when they are successful hitters and not outstanding in the field at 23. Talk about setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

Braun certainly looks to have the skills to be a fine 3B, and he will get every opportunity to do so. The Brewers are not the shortsighted team that had Belliard and Loretta backing up Huey, Dewey, and Louie. I'm sure Brett was moved to 1B and Manny was moved to DH an infinite amount of times early in their careers as well. Thankfully, their teams did not shift several position players around every time someone made a miscue.

[endaround]

Except those examples are crap. Boggs in his first full season at 3B was 34 FRAR. Brett in his first full season was 4 FRAR and he was 21. At age 23 Brett was at 16 FRAR. Braun is at -8 for his partial season.

 

You know whats shortsighted? Wasting away years in which you have your shot because you want to make sure Braun gets a bigger FA check or a better shot at the HoF for his next team.

[Fatter than Joey]

They made some nice points on ESPN last night, how George Brett and Wade Boggs were not good defenders either when they started, but were above average in the course of their careers.

 

Brett and Boggs, (neither of whom are Braun), were both average/serviceable fielders that became gold glovers, neither were ever as wretched as Braun is, not even close. This point also assumes that Braun will enjoy offensive production of 2 HOFers like Brett/Boggs. While Braun's future is bright, it's probably too early to assume that he will be able continually produce as he has at the plate.

 

Many folks simply forget how tough it is to play MLB. The casual fan wants to rush the kids up, then are unhappy when they are successful hitters and not outstanding in the field at 23.

 

I don't think anyone here thinks playing 3b is easy, and I think everyone here thought he would have struggles, but probably not to the degree he has. I think the thing most people here are guilty of, is underestimating the value of defense.

 

Braun certainly looks to have the skills to be a fine 3B, and he will get every opportunity to do so.

 

Again, this assumes consistent MVP production at the plate. If Ned Yost feels the need to pull him in the 7th inning right now, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see he won't get starts if his offensive production drops off substantially.

[PeaveyFury]

Wasting away years in which you have your shot because you want to make sure Braun gets a bigger FA check or a better shot at the HoF for his next team.

 

What exactly is your point here? Are you seriously arguing that the Brewers are being hurt more by Braun's defense than helped by his Rookie Of the Year offensive campaign?

[jeffy]

Many folks simply forget how tough it is to play MLB. The casual fan wants to rush the kids up, then are unhappy when they are successful hitters and not outstanding in the field at 23. Talk about setting yourself up for disappointment.

Not at all. Here is what I do not get...I don't see how playing defense is more difficult in MLB than AAA, AA, A,... It would seem to me the hitting is what becomes more difficult, due to the better pitching. How is it any harder to make a throw from third to first at one level vs. another? How is it any harder for Rickie Weeks to turn a double play in MLB vs. the minors? Or perhaps a better way to put it is: why have these things not already been learned in AAA, AA, A, etc.?

 

Those are the sort of things I do not understand. It seems like they should have long ago learned how to field and throw and this aspect of the game does not really change much when they get to MLB. I would think that what they would still need to learn, after getting to MLB, is how to hit major league pitching. Instead it seems to be the opposite.

[igor67]

I don't get to see Braun play that often, but in contrast to Rickie he seems to have rapidly shored up serious parts of his defense namely throwing errors. Rickie seems to have possibly compensated for all of his errors by positioning himself to get to fewer balls and have fewer chances to make wild off balance throws. In the end I think the mistake made in aligning the defense was that Weeks should have been the one to move to CF and Hall stayed at second base where he had played well for years. Maybe the coaches didn't have enough data, but Rickie has had a lot longer time at second then Braun has at third and his defense has stagnated while Braun still has the potential in my mind to keep improving. I'm much less optmistic about the chances of Weeks athleticism carrying through now.

[endaround]

Wasting away years in which you have your shot because you want to make sure Braun gets a bigger FA check or a better shot at the HoF for his next team.

 

What exactly is your point here? Are you seriously arguing that the Brewers are being hurt more by Braun's defense than helped by his Rookie Of the Year offensive campaign?

The point is that if Hall is at 3B and Braun moved to a corner outfield position the Brewers would be around 2 wins better.Weeks defense is bad but at least he is in smelling distance of average.

 

[WestCoastBrewer]

Why is it that we are so concerned about defense, this team has not only achieved many fans expectations and provided great entertainment. In my opinion as fans get to caught up in numbers, enjoy the season it's been pretty succesful and it's not over yet!

 

As tough as some of the losses have been the success of this season and the enjoyement of watching and listening to games this late in the year with meaning compared to several of the past years.

 

Here are a few interesting numbers for you number crunchers:

2007 - 3b Errors

 

Braun - 22

Zimmerman - 23

Kouzmanoff - 21

Wright - 21

Cabrera - 22

[Baldkin]

Braun has 100 less chances than any of those on the list... 200 less than Wright and Zimmerman.

If he'd been up all year he'd be at 35 errors at the pace he's been at.

And Zimmerman plays with the only 1b worse defensively than Prince in the NL.

 

.903 fielding %. That's awful.

 

1 in 10 balls hit to him, he's made an error.

 

Do I think he's gotten better? Yes, I do. He's great at coming in on the ball, but anything hit to his right he reacts slow, and tends to make a bad throw.

 

Its footwork, and the only way it will get better is 1000 groundballs hit to his backhand side every day. "No more of this olé...."

[homer]

"Brett and Boggs, (neither of whom are Braun), were both average/serviceable fielders that became gold glovers, neither were ever as wretched as Braun is, not even close. "

 

Brett had 30 errors at age 26. Boggs had 27 at age 25.

 

Brett didn't win his gold glove until 1985 at age 32. Boggs won two - at ages 36 and 37.

 

 

Boggs was not in the majors at age 23 (like Braun). Brett had 26 errors at age 23. Had Braun been up all year he might have 30 errors which is bad but not all that much worse than Brett or Boggs performed later in their respective careers.

[endaround]

And if you look at errors sure it looks bad. But Boggs was a great defender from his first full season. Braun's errors are the smallest of his problems

[Fatter than Joey]

	G	PO	A	E	DP	%	Lg%
Braun	103	57	145	22	10	.902	.955
Brett	149	373	373	30	28	.944	.953
Boggs (Age 25)	153	118	368	27	40	.947	.955

Using error totals in the years you mention, you can clearly see that Braun's error total is clearly a function of having many less chances. Braun is wretched, Boggs/Brett were average/serviceable. Clearly Braun was much worse.

 

 

Here are a few interesting numbers for you number crunchers:

 

Again you just can't look at errors w/o considering total chances -- Clearly Braun is the worst. -- probably the worst fielding IF in the NL.

 

		GP	GS	INN	TC	PO	A	E	DP	FPCT	RF	ZR
Chipper Jones	Atl	118	118	1020.2	296	75	213	8	16	.973	2.54	.799
Pedro Feliz	SF	136	131	1166.2	388	90	287	11	27	.972	2.91	.848
Aramis Ramirez	ChC	119	119	1038.1	344	86	248	10	18	.971	2.90	.777
Scott Rolen	StL	112	108	935.0	321	85	226	10	22	.969	2.99	.847
Garrett Atkins	Col	145	144	1249.0	332	81	238	13	33	.961	2.30	.717
Abraham Nunez	Phi	106	50	564.2	219	40	170	9	11	.959	3.35	.808
Edwin Encarnacion	Cin	129	126	1098.0	324	109	201	14	20	.957	2.54	.784
Jose Bautista	Pit	118	114	995.2	334	92	227	15	14	.955	2.89	.742
David Wright	NYM	150	150	1336.1	422	97	305	20	22	.953	2.71	.770
Ryan Zimmerman	Was	153	153	1362.2	483	129	331	23	37	.952	3.04	.808
Miguel Cabrera	Fla	145	144	1241.2	368	92	254	22	31	.940	2.51	.719
Kevin Kouzmanoff	SD	126	118	1044.1	289	82	187	20	10	.931	2.32	.755
Ryan Braun	Mil	103	103	867.1	224	57	145	22	10	.902	2.10	.693

 

Why is it that we are so concerned about defense,

 

Well Yost has been pulling the best hitter in our lineup almost every game -- it is not as if we are nitpicking.

 

 

(prettified tables --1992)

[whizkid]

Let me ask this about ZR and other defensive stats. Is it only getting to a ball that matters or does the fielder have to complete the play. A lot of Ryan's errors have been throwing and I would think counting against him in ZR. I think throwing is improvable as to consistency. Ryan has also made some tremendous plays and completed the throw. He seems to have stopped knocking away balls JJ can get to.

 

3B is a reaction position. Ryan certainly seems quick enough to handle it and I think he will and should be there next year

 

Are there monthly splits for defensive stats? As questionable as defensive stats are in the first place, I know monthly splits would be even more so but I would be interested.

 

I'm amazed sometimes in the IGT by some comments concerning individual plays. Some seem to totally disregard how hard balls are hit when a fielder doesn't get to them or whether they are short or long hops or in-between hops which are much tougher.

[lukevan]

I don't see how playing defense is more difficult in MLB than AAA, AA, A,...

 

I'll bite on this one. Better hitters = more difficult plays to make on the infield, in that balls are hit with more velocity on average in MLB as opposed to in the minors. Not to mention, expectations of a defensive player are higher as you literally MUST make 95 out of every 100 plays (or thereabouts) to be considered even serviceable. On average, I would guess also that you have less time to throw the man out at first, though that is probably less of a factor.

[TooLiveBrew]

Let me ask this about ZR and other defensive stats. Is it only getting to a ball that matters or does the fielder have to complete the play. A lot of Ryan's errors have been throwing and I would think counting against him in ZR.

 

The Harball Times defines Revised Zone Rating (RZR) as: "the proportion of balls hit into a fielder's zone that he successfully converted into an out. Zone Rating was invented by John Dewan when he was CEO of Stats Inc. John is now the owner of Baseball Info Solutions, where he has revised the original Zone Rating calculation so that it now lists balls handled out of the zone (OOZ) separately (and doesn't include them in the ZR calculation) and doesn't give players extra credit for double plays (Stats had already made that change). We believe both changes improve Zone Ratings substantially. To get a full picture of a player's range, you should evaluate both his Revised Zone Rating and his plays made out of zone (OOZ)."

 

Here is one of their articles on the topic.

 

For those counting, Braun is 13th of 13 (3B with > 750 Total Innings at the position) in OOZ, and 13th of 13 in RZR. While you're correct in that throwing counts ("convert[ing] into an out"), it most certainly should count. Time will tell if Braun can remedy this weakness in his game, and I hold out much hope & optimism that he can.