2008 Centerfielder and Bill Hall; Team Defensive Issues

[Klements Bratwurst]

After Centerfielder Corey Hart ran down another hard hit ball in the gap of last night's 5-4 excruciating loss to the Astros, I said to myself, "There is our next Centerfielder for 2008." "But wait", I said. "We have Billy Hall."

 

Now I know that Bill Hall is having a down year, but he did seem to catch on to playing Centerfield rather well by the middle of the season. However, Corey Hart is the fastest Brewer, and really looks like he is a natural out there, tracking balls properly, getting to balls in the gap, decent throwing arm, and not afraid to go all out for a ball at the fence.

 

With that said, I believe Corey Hart has all the tools to be far better than Billy Hall at that position, and we found out about this by accident, due to Billy's plate struggles this season. With Hart in Centerfield, you would have Soriano numbers at that position, which would be far above average for that position compared to the rest of the league.

 

So what do you do with Billy Hall and the centerfield experiment?

 

As stated, he can play that position, but would it be best to turn him into a 24 million dollar super-sub again?

 

Do you move Billy to 3B thus strengthening that position defensively and pray he hits for that position (ala 2006) and put Braun in Rightfield where his numbers would play well? (However, this to me would be a risk due to the offensive troubles that were caused by moving our last infielder to the outfield this season, but this IS Ryan Braun, we are talking about).

 

Do you have a marquee trading chip in Hall for another starter, and some steady veteran relief help to replace the floundering Wise and Turnblow (That is the only way I can say his name)? I would think that many teams would love to add Billy to their team because he is a GREAT team player, can play multiple positions, can mash for a SS, and many GM's might believe that his 2007 struggles would be due to his position change. ( I personally think Billy should be playing right now, and that he might have had 15-18 HR's this season if he had.)

 

Do you keep Hall in Center and Corey in Right and just be satisfied with the fact that your outfield defense should be rather quick, athletic and maybe above average defensively and offensively for center and right field? (I tend to think again that Corey would be the better of the two for Centerfield)

 

I think this team can hit enough collectively to be average or slightly below average at the third base position if that is where we put Hall there and put Braun elsewhere. (I would consider LF for Braun, but with LaPorta on the horizon, that would be two moves in two years and a half years for Braun.)

 

To me this is an interesting dilemna for the Brewers for the offseason. It is just fun to watch Corey go out there and get those balls like he did last night. I guess with Billy's infield experience and his current status as on the bench, it might be fun to ponder again where Mr. Hall ends up in 2008. It isn't like our infield defense couldn't be made better with some soft glovehands.

 

(added tags and expanded thread title to cover broadened scope of discussion --1992)

[biedergb]

My $0.02: I don't like the idea of trading Billy -- don't sell low.

Hart in CF would be nice, and shift Billy to LF (letting him refocus on offense and try to reproduce his '05/'06 output), but that leaves a hole in RF without any obvious candidates on the team. And signing or trading for a RF could be pricy.

I don't think sending Billy back to the IF (especially 3b) would help him, it would put 2 offensive players at new positions next year and if that was the plan all along, Billy would have been our starting 3B this season, and Ryan would have been learning the OF in April/May down in AAA.

I think one solution would be to find an average CF who is good defensively and a contact hitter and could be signed reasonably (if one such player is available) keep Hart in RF, and move Billy to LF.

[rluzinski]

I'm always wrong about this stuff (projecting defensive development) but I'll say it anyway. It's hard for me to picture Hall having better defense in CF than Hart. It's hard for me to picture Braun be even an average defender at 3B. It's hard for me to picture Jenkins being around next year.

 

Hart: CF

Hall: 3B

Braun: LF

 

Whether that's a good move, Melvin needs to recognize that the team defense has to improve somehow.

[biedergb]

I'm always wrong about this stuff but I'll say it anyway. It's hard for me to picture Hall having better defense in CF than Hart. It's hard for me to picture Braun be even an average defender at 3B. It's hard for me to picture Jenkins being around next year.

 

Hart: CF

Hall: 3B

Braun: LF

 

Whether that's a good move, Melvin needs to recognize that the team defense has to improve somehow.

 

I'd be with you on that, except that I'm afraid that would put us back a year. Having hall and braun switch to new positions could affect their offense, and losing 2 of those bats for long periods of the year would hurt us much more than their respective lapses in defense. But that's obviously a debatable issue.

[Klements Bratwurst]

I'm always wrong about this stuff but I'll say it anyway. It's hard for me to picture Hall having better defense in CF than Hart. It's hard for me to picture Braun be even an average defender at 3B. It's hard for me to picture Jenkins being around next year.

 

Hart: CF

Hall: 3B

Braun: LF

 

Whether that's a good move, Melvin needs to recognize that the team defense has to improve somehow.

The last sentence I believe is what the Brewers need to do for sure in 2008 and a solution that your laying out would strenghthen two spots defensively. The only concern I have is would Braun's offense struggle with a move (I don't think it would) and would having to move him again in 2009 or 2010 be a cause for concern with LaPorta coming along?

 

Brauns WARP as a left fielder might grow from a 3.9 as a 3B now to what an 8 or 9 with his offensive production without the negatives he brings currently at third?

[TooLiveBrew]

As has been mentioned, moving Hall to LF would really lower his value to the team. The main reason he was placed in CF is that his offense there is a bonus over league-average (plus he's athletic enough to handle it). I agree not to trade Hall, both for not selling low, and because I believe he will be improved in 2008. It's very safe to say his D will continue to get better, and expecting 20+ HRs is too. As for RF, that's Corey's spot, and find a platoon mate for Gabe in LF (hopefully one that has a good OBP, too). Either that, or spend some $/make a trade to acquire a LF.

[dadofandrew]

Hall in CF, and Hart in RF for '08. The only reason he is not out there for us if our depth, which is stellar (and folks have been trying to eliminate all year).

[Crewin06]

I like the outfield of Hart, Hall, and Gwynn/Gross/Mench next season. Who plays where does not really matter to me. In no way would I sign another outfielder because the price to benefit would be rediculous and could be spent better else where.

 

The last thing I would want to see is 7-10 million for 3 years spent on a Dave Roberts/Kenny Lofton/ Juan Pierre type. If we want that type of player out there why not save 6.5 million-9.5 million a year and try Gwynn out there.

 

And to put Full disclosure out ther I am not the biggest Tony Gwynn fan.

[theavrock]

Here is what I would like to see happen. Corey manning CF, Hall moving back to 3rd, Braun playing in LF and a platoon of Gross/Dillon in RF until LaPorta is ready to step in. This improves us at CF and 3B. Corey looks very good in CF when he has played out there this season.

 

Now the whole thing would hinge on whether or not Braun can play LF, which is not a certainty. If he can play average D out there (hell if Caballo can do it) we should be alright. He has a cannon for an arm and good range.

 

Honestly I think Braun will hit no matter where he goes. He is as natural of a hitter as I have seen in a long time. Billy yes probably struggled somewhat with the adjustment to the new position but he is a guess hitter and when he gueses wrong looks very bad at the plate. He has played 3B and can again. As long as he has a set position (which he has played in the past), I think he will be alright.

 

As Russ said the defense needs to improve but I dont see many of the faces changing all that much. The young cheap talent is just too good here. I think that some players just need to have certain defensive attributes of their game accentuated.

[endaround]

Hall in CF, and Hart in RF for '08. The only reason he is not out there for us if our depth, which is stellar (and folks have been trying to eliminate all year).

Please show which player starting in the outfield yesterday won't be here next year.

Hall being moved to 3B is the only real way to improve the defense within the organization.

[brettac1]

I agree with end and Russ. Braun is easily athletic enough to play LF decently, and if nothing else he can't hurt the team as much out there as he can at 3B. I don't believe all that much in a defensive move negatively impacting a player's offense, and I definitely don't worry about it with Braun because I don't think he spends a ton of time worrying about his defense anyhow. Like someone else said about Weeks - defense is for players who can't hit.

 

But, I think we all know that Hall's going to be in CF next year.

[pogokat]

i've been calling for hart in cf since 2004...nonetheless...i don't think we're losing much by having hall/hart at either...i don't think one is drastically better than the other...

 

braun stays at third...at least for the next 2 seasons..

[Baldkin]

Dillon/Gross, Hall, Hart. Gwynn on the bench for '08. At least, that's how I see it.

 

I can't imagine moving Braun after a full year devoted to him 'getting it' (and he is getting better, imo).

[sbrylski]

This season, management was dead set on Hall being a CFer and only a CFer because of the difficulty of the position change. However, with a year under his belt and Hall becoming close to average out there, I wonder if they'll be more flexibilty next season on where he plays. I guess I'm suggesting that Hall be considered a "super-starter" again, and log time at both CF and all around the IF. When Hall is in the IF, Hart can slide over to CF and we lose nothing out there.

 

I don't see Braun moving, at least not yet, and Hall as a full-time LFer might be worse than making him a super-sub. I think sending him back to a super-starter role now with CF in his arsenal of glovework would be the most valuable to the team.

 

Great topic.

[RobertR]

In many ways I'd agree that the Braun LF, Hall 3B, Hart CF alignment would be optimal. That said, I'd be pretty worried that someone might get the idea of inserting "prototypical centerfielder" Tony Gwynn into the lineup on a regular basis. I'm all for avoiding that temptation.

 

Robert

[sbrylski]

Shudder at the thought of a Hall - Gwynn - Hart outfield next year... Not all bad I suppose, decent defensive upgrade.

[billyhallfan]

i'm not saying that they shouldn't but I just can't see them moving Hall for Gwynn. In april and may Hall couldn't catch anything out there and they stuck with him, Gwynn never went to center. I just can't see them signing him to that money just for him to move again, isn't the reason why he signed was to stay put. All of that being said, I am fine with Hall moving for Hart. But not for Gwynn, Gwynn needs to be traded while his value is still high.

[MadisonBrewerBlue]

i see the brewers turning billy hall back into the super sub that he once was and still can be in the 08 season...with the lack of playing time gwynn has gotten since sept 1, i see him as being traded for pitching pitching and more pitching

[logan82]

I would love for Hall to go back to supersub. I think players need a day off a week and having a player like Hall to fill in was nice last year. I never complained about Hall to CF because I saw no point since the organization was set on it. I think he actually hits better when he does't have time to think to much about where he is going to play.

[Fatter than Joey]

It's hard for me to picture Hall having better defense in CF than Hart. It's hard for me to picture Braun be even an average defender at 3B. It's hard for me to picture Jenkins being around next year.

 

I agree.

 

Whether that's a good move, Melvin needs to recognize that the team defense has to improve somehow.

 

Agreed again, Our D has been to us in 2007 what injuries were to us in 2006. For as much BFnet looks at things like batting order, we really gloss over the crappy team D.

 

Hall in CF, and Hart in RF for '08. & i don't think one is drastically better than the other...

 

I merged Al and Pogo's statements -- Hall is a brutal CFer. Hart is an above average RF. Hall is worse than a replacement player on a team that would win 25 games in a season.

I think Hart is much better

 

The only reason he (Hall) is not out there for us if our depth,

 

I doubt it -- It is in a large part that is because Hall's WARP is well below Juan Pierre's.

 

braun stays at third...at least for the next 2 seasons

 

Good god I hope no. Unless he improves on D, he will have to sustain his MVP level production at the plate to be an overall positive. It seems smarter to me to move the players, rather than bet the bankon their improvement

[MoneyballMan]

I assume (since I don't see anything referenced in this thread thus far) that no one has heard any recent comments from Yost or Melvin regarding Hall? I'm not sure I've even seen comments about Hall and his general lack of playing time.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

The one thing I don't want to see is Hall in LF. He just isn't likely to hit enough to justify getting playing time there. If that's what it comes to, they should make every effort to flip him to a team that needs a SS for a legit corner hitting outfielder, selling low or no.

 

I think Wilson's possibly splittsville from Pittsburgh this offseason. If so, I wonder how much above and beyond Hall it would take to get Jason Bay in a swap of 07 disappointments?

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Hart: CF

Hall: 3B

Braun: LF

 

Whether that's a good move, Melvin needs to recognize that the team defense has to improve somehow.

Melvin and Yost are way too stubborn to do such a thing. It really is sad too that their egos stop the moves.

[pogokat]

joey---

 

the brewers are not fickle with position changes...i think that is well established...i see no reason why they would move braun off of 3b any quicker than they moved weeks off of 2b...same goes for hall...unless he resumes his super subbing

[TheBrewer]

Like the last poster said, Brauns not moving anywhere. I don't get how people think Melvin and Co. are going to move Braun to the OF or whatever position other than 3B. Just like ala Weeks.. Brauns not moving anywhere so get over it..

 

As far as Hall, I think realistically Hall will be in CF again, unless a shakeup occurrs such as him only moving to a corner OF spot and Hart to CF.. I think they'll try to acquire an OF this off-season via trade, and if they get someone productive it may over -shadow what Hall does or doesn't do next season on offense.