Outside Take on Level of Yost Criticism

[rluzinski]

but I'm still not exactly sure why you feel as though you have such a strong handle on the thought process of 30,000+ people.

 

Let me put it this way. How many people bothered to look at Aquino's performance before he was a Brewer? How many of those 30,000+ had any idea how Aquino did after being sent down? Heck, how many people know he was even sent down? That's not to say their opinion would have been different with regard to the move but at least it would have been an informed boo.

 

And to make it clear that I don't think it's an intelligence issue or a "better fan" issue; I watch every Packer game and live and die on every play. That doesn't make me a particularly knowledgeable fan, however. I can still enjoy the Packers without knowing every nuance of the team and there's nothing wrong with that.

[TooLiveBrew]

Let me put it this way. How many people bothered to look at Aquino's performance before he was a Brewer? How many of those 30,000+ had any idea how Aquino did after being sent down? Heck, how many people know he was even sent down? That's not to say their opinion would have been different with regard to the move but at least it would have been an informed boo.

 

Without entering any opinion on the beef, I think his point was, essentially, how can you know what number of fans did or didn't know or not know about Aquino, and how many is 'enough', in your opinon?

[DougJones43]

How many people bothered to look at Aquino's performance before he was a Brewer?

 

I don't know.

 

 

How many of those 30,000+ had any idea how Aquino did after being sent down?

 

I don't know.

 

 

Heck, how many people know he was even sent down?

 

I don't know.

 

 

I understand what you're trying to say here. However, it seems as though (perhaps unintentionally), due to the large number of complaints, all criticisms are being lumped together as reactionary grumbling. There seems to be a vibe from a lot of sources that anybody who criticizes managerial tactics:

- Is just a second-guesser

- Just hates Ned Yost

- Doesn't really know what they're talking about, but just likes to complain

- Only question moves that don't work

- Probably uses faulty information or logic to come to their conclusions

- Doesn't understand that players and talent matter more than managing

 

This sort of broad-stroke stuff is often used to invalidate all criticisms of Yost, including the "informed" criticisms, even though a lot of them actually remain quite legitimate.

[rluzinski]

How many people bothered to look at Aquino's performance before he was a Brewer?

 

I don't know.

 

 

How many of those 30,000+ had any idea how Aquino did after being sent down?

 

I don't know

If the over under was 50%, I would be a lot of money on the over. I suspect you would as well.

[billyhallfan]

rluzinski, i was at the game in 324, and when Shouse was coming out they were booing and saying that Yost sucks, I struggle to find your point that they were booing Aquino, when most of them didn't even know who he was.

[rluzinski]

rluzinski, i was at the game in 324, and when Shouse was coming out they were booing and saying that Yost sucks, I struggle to find your point that they were booing Aquino, when most of them didn't even know who he was.

 

I was at the game as well. Aquino jogged in and the crowd started booing. It was obvious that they were not fond of the pitching change but exactly why wasn't clear to me (no one stood up and explained). You'd have to really be fond of Shouse against a RH hitter to boo Yost for bringing in a completely unknown pitcher, wouldn't you? I can only conclude that many remembered Aquino from the blown games earlier in the year.

 

I understand what you're trying to say here. However, it seems as though (perhaps unintentionally), due to the large number of complaints, all criticisms are being lumped together as reactionary grumbling.

 

That's certainly not what I'm trying to do, although I'm sure some do just that. I've publically criticised Yost's moves many times throughout his managing career with the Brewers and amnay times this year. As I said, I didn't like the Aquino move and I've never been a big fan of his in game management. I don't care in the least if he's fired int he off season. I am no Yost appologist. The amount of criticism has just gotten unreal this year, however, and often, it's a result of ignorance of the facts or questionable logic. How many times this year has someone criticised Yost for not using a player who wasn't even available (pinch batter already used, player hurt, relief pitcher over used, etc...)?

[PeaveyFury]

Or you can possibly conclude that they wanted Cordero in that situation like everyone else here and were disappointed with the selection.

[billyhallfan]

I can only conclude that many remembered Aquino from the blown games earlier in the year.

 

why, you said...

 

had any idea how Aquino did after being sent down? Heck, how many people know he was even sent down?

 

if the people that were booing didn't even know that he was sent down, why would they know who he is.

 

 

I'm done arguing with you, anything that I say you twist around and make some useless statement. My first comment wasn't even directed towards you, I frankly am getting sick of the "I'm better than everyone, smarter because I know stats attitude." There are plenty of people on here that are knowledgable baseball fans and think that stats are overrated, any single statement that you think is even just a little bit wrong you wine about it and make sure that you call that person out. It's really annoying!

[rluzinski]

Or you can possibly conclude that they wanted Cordero in that situation like everyone else here and were disappointed with the selection.

 

That's a fair point. Was Cordero warmed up?

 

My first comment wasn't even directed towards you, I frankly am getting sick of the "I'm better than everyone, smarter because I know stats attitude."

 

If you mean that I think that I'm smart because I look at all of a player's minor and major league stats before judging him, guilty.

[SoCalBrewfan]

Please be nice, fellas.

 

Back to the original article, MGL's blog post doesn't seem like a terribly thoughtful look at Yost as a manager. To me, he chose one occasion and used it to grind a particular axe or two about bullpen usage and the usefulness of small sample numbers, without really considering the bigger question of Yost's managerial role...he as much as admits that he doesn't really know that much about Yost. That post is more about MGL than it is about Yost.

 

However, the followups point out plenty of other reasons to doubt Yost's tactical skill.

 

From everything I've seen, estimates are that the difference between, say, Aquino, Shouse, and Cordero in that situation is not nearly as great as most fans assume. We tend to attribute a loss to Yost (as in TLB's signature), but I don't know that we really mean that any given loss is ever 100% on Yost's shoulders. A lot of failures and successes come together to decide a baseball game. Nothing in baseball is ever certain. Heaven knows that Cordero has blown leads...he could easily have done so that day. Heaven knows that Jenkins has struck out on a low outside breaking ball in key situations, so that fateful Mench at bat might not have have turned out differently with Jenkins at the plate.

 

But even if the change in win probability is only 5%, or 1%, it's an advantage that Yost eschewed for no good reason. And baseball games in general, and the Cubs-Brewers race this year, can and do turn on very small differences. Very often teams are closely matched and a game comes down to a key at bat or two that can shift the outcome dramatically. It is, as they say, sometimes a game of inches. Further, there's short-term and medium-term implications of decisions, like allowing the pitcher to bat when he's thrown 100 pitches, or the use of Turnbow in the 6-1 game, or the usage of Cordero if and only if there is a save situation. And in that regard Yost seems like he's consistently one step behind the curve.

[PeaveyFury]

SoCal, in this situation, it WAS a save situation and Cordero was warm. Considering that Yost has used Cordero this year in similar situations, that's the frustrating and puzzling thing about some of Yost's move- inconsistency, with little to no apparent reasoning for it.

[TooLiveBrew]

duuhhhhh, PeaveyFury! He just uses flow-of the-game splits! http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif

[UndraftedFA]

SoCal, in this situation, it WAS a save situation and Cordero was warm. Considering that Yost has used Cordero this year in similar situations, that's the frustrating and puzzling thing about some of Yost's move- inconsistency, with little to no apparent reasoning for it.

 

If you are talking about the "Aquino" game, I don't think CoCo could have been warm. Shouse was in the pen along with Aquino. Unless Cordero was all warmed up in the course of Biggio's at-bat, he wouldn't have been ready. I think they usually take a bit longer than that.

[DougJones43]

Well, even if Cordero wasn't warmed up, whose fault is that? Last time I checked, Yost has the authority to decide who warms up. If he chose to have Aquino warm up with the game hanging in the balance, that's on him. Making a mistake by not having his best reliever ready doesn't give him a free pass on not using him. He's responsible for all of it. If it's too much for him, I'm sure there is somebody out there who can figure it out.

[rluzinski]

If all the fans were booing because Vargas was not being put in, that would be about the worst example of unfair criticism being heaped on Yost. I still think that the majority of the booing had more to do with Aquino's number being called but I have no way of verifying that, obviously.