Let's Give Rickie Weeks some Props (merged with SoCal Brew Crew Fan's props thread)

[PeaveyFury]

What, Rickie remembers how to hit, and now he can't play defense anymore? Is it too much to ask that he do both well?

[Fatter than Joey]

The defense has been so horrible that the team is giving up an extra run almost every other game according to some defensive metrics.

 

Weeks cost us a couple of runs tonight.

 

I am still trying to understand how getting on base and being fast is bad for a leadoff hitter. As for the 2nd part that is like saying, if Sheets couldn't pitch he wouldn't be in MLB. The fact is he does walk and gets on base at a very good clip. I see this as only a positive since at least if he isn't hitting, he still contributes on offense.

 

Getting on base is a great thing that Weeks does -- IMO if he wasn't getting walks, his inability to make contact and play D would get him a one-way ticket to Nashville.

 

As far as the defense, he is close to the worst defender, for starters, in MLB. He has however made big strides since coming up and with his athleticism there is no reason to believe he will not make further progress.

 

By your admission is among the worst defenders in MLB (I agree) -- I don't see how you can be among the worse, and have had made great strides. I do not understand the handwaving that goes along with athleticism and fielding ability. There are a lot of great athletes that can't turn a 2xplay, or make a pick in the hole. I don't think you can just say "great athlete = great potential fielder"

 

I'm saving this quote. These are comments left for people of Mench's caliber, not Weeks. I could not disagree more with this poster and I am confident that this poster will eat most of these words. He can save my quote too and stick it in my face if I am wrong, but I doubt it.

 

I hope I am wrong -- all I want to say to you, is that your avatar freaking cracks me up.

 

FTJ, I'm going to pick on you a little bit,

 

Hey everybody -- It's one of my inlaws!

 

because your posts are so consistently thoughtful and well-reasoned.

 

Oops, maybe not http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

But on this issue you seem to have picked a conclusion and stuck to it stubbornly

 

Well -- It's the way I feel -- Weeks has not done anything this year (or other years) to make me think that he is going to be "great". He has had some good streaks, and I hope we can chalk this up to injuries, but I am somewhat dubious -- again I'm not calling for his head on a platter or that he should be traded for a bag of balls, just that he may be an MC Hammer in a Snoop Dogg world.

 

I agree that Weeks is a poor fielding 2b, although you have given no good account of why you believe (a) he has regressed, (b) he is at or near the very bottom of the pile,

 

I do not think that my claim that Weeks is among the worst starting defenders in MLB is one that is irrational or without merit. There are a bunch of dudes in this thread that concede that. As far as regressions, when he broke in, he was among the worse, he still is among the worse, he is a young player that should show progression, the fact that he isn't seems like a regression to me.

 

© his athleticism won't allow him to improve significantly.

 

I don't buy this at all.

 

His boosters (like me) think he has a decent chance to develop into a .300 hitter.

 

How? -- If it is injury-related, OK. Otherwise I don't see how he jumps that high.

 

You'd expect a guy like that to develop a lot more.

 

I would have thought he would have developed more by now.

 

People mentioned Tony Phillips

 

Tony Phillips was a valuable player because he could play anywhere on the field -- and he took an ungodly amount of walks.

 

I guess I am a little skeptical that Rickie will continue to keep getting walks, if he is hitting around .230.

 

Even if he remained among the league's worst defenders at his position, he'd be among the top overall players at the position in most seasons.

 

I think he'd have to hit about .330 to compensate for his D.

 

That's if he hits .270 -- and like I said, I can't imagine any reason to assume he'll hit below .270.

 

I don't know why this position seems less arbitrary than mine. The big variable is his injury -- if it was worse than we imagined, then you certainly have more reason for optimism -- however, if the wrist isn't hampering him, then I have more reason to be skeptical.

[logan82]

He is still one of the worst, but isn't as bad as he was when he came up. Braun could cut his errors for next year in half, which would be a big improvement, and still be one of the worst defenders in the league.

 

EDIT: Weeks went from bad defenders being insulted if they were in th esame sentence as him to being one of the worst defenders. Still bad, but an improvement.

[logan82]

Getting on base is a great thing that Weeks does -- IMO if he wasn't getting walks, his inability to make contact and play D would get him a one-way ticket to Nashville.

True, but he does walk and get on base. Like saying if you take away the big innings that Bush gives up he would have an ERA less than 3.00. You can't pick and choose bits and pieces of stats.

[gregmag]

Wow, FTJ -- that's a really disappointing response, IMHO. I tried to engage your viewpoint on its own terms, and in response you ignored most of what I said, tried to cast a few things as if I was mouthing off with big claims of the sort I specifically disdained, and responded to a few of my statements with wholly unsupported assertions. You obviously have an opinion that isn't open to discussion. Sorry I wasted both of our time.

 

Greg.

[Fatter than Joey]

Like saying if you take away the big innings that Bush gives up he would have an ERA less than 3.00. You can't pick and choose bits and pieces of stats.

 

Nope that is not at all what I am doing, you are off-base. In your example you are talking about stats, I am talking about facets of Rickie's game or "tools". Rickie can take walks. If he cannot make contact, pitchers will be more aggressive with him, and he will get less walks. If Weeks continues to butcher and spike his throws, he won't make it much longer at the MLB level.

[molitor fan]

FTJ.....so Weeks would be passable if he had a .330 batting average, which would give him a .480 On-base percentage....oh, ok.

 

Weeks came into tonight with a .777 OPS, middle of the pack for 2nd basemen, and his 12 errors in 100 games is not very good, though many posters on this thread are wayyyyy overstating his issues on d. Weeks is a good 2nd sacker as it stands, and he still has a chance to be a star.

[Blazer25]

though many posters on this thread are wayyyyy overstating his issues on d. Weeks is a good 2nd sacker as it stands

Actually I think his lack of defensive ability has been understated by many.

 

He is bad. His error totals fail to reflect how bad. He has 12 errors that he's been charged with but there have been at least 10 occasions where he has made a bad throw on the back end of a DP.

 

He shows flashes of being able to make spectacular plays but also shows a lack of consistency. Right now from a scouting POV he's a 40 on the 20-80 scale which is below average. I think he has the ability to be a 50 or 55 if he improves his consistency.

 

I won't jump in the same boat as FTJ and say I don't think he'll be able to improve but for the Brewers' sake I hope it happens sooner than later.

[TooLiveBrew]

This thread feels eerily similar to all the "J.J. stinks" threads before the beginning of this season. When a player gets injured, it can make people forget what he's capable of doing.

 

I don't think that is the case. A lot of people will blame the WOAHS of 2007 on our SP and RP, however equitable in the blame is our stinky defense. As he is today, I do not think his offensive abilities outweigh his defensive liabilities. I can live with Braun and Fielder's bad D, not Weeks though.

Where in there did you address the similarity between the criticism of Weeks - which is clouded by injury - and the criticism of J.J. - also clouded by injury?

If he cannot make contact, pitchers will be more aggressive with him, and he will get less walks. If Weeks continues to butcher and spike his throws, he won't make it much longer at the MLB level.

 

Dead wrong. This guy can flat-out get on base, and his power stroke returns more with each day for his wrist to get back to 100%. Since his return to the bigs on August 10th (hardly a small sample anymore - though I concede his career norms will likely not be quite this high):

 

81 ABs, 24 H, 22 BB, 6 HBP, .264/.468/.519/.987, and 6-6 in SB opportunities.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong on that OBP (& subsequently, OPS), since I couldn't find his TPA since the return - just AB, H, BB, & HBP. That pretty much echoes gregmag's ".270" projection, and I agree with him that it would be surprising if a healthy Weeks would max out merely at .270. You show me a guy with numbers like that that isn't in MLB - regardless of fielding deficiencies. While I agree it's been frustrating to wait for Weeks to get healthy, it was frustrating to wait for J.J., too, but no one would disagree that it was well worth-while.

[logan82]

Like saying if you take away the big innings that Bush gives up he would have an ERA less than 3.00. You can't pick and choose bits and pieces of stats.

 

Nope that is not at all what I am doing, you are off-base. In your example you are talking about stats, I am talking about facets of Rickie's game or "tools". Rickie can take walks. If he cannot make contact, pitchers will be more aggressive with him, and he will get less walks. If Weeks continues to butcher and spike his throws, he won't make it much longer at the MLB level.

Ok then how about if you take away Sheets curveball he isn't much more than an average middle reliever. Weeks has a developed ability to draw walks and get on base. You can't take that part of his game away. I agree with Greg that your responses are usually well thought out, but this time it seems like you are letting your feelings and dislike of Weeks defense cloud your judgement.

[Ennder]

FTJ.....so Weeks would be passable if he had a .330 batting average, which would give him a .480 On-base percentage....oh, ok.

 

Weeks came into tonight with a .777 OPS, middle of the pack for 2nd basemen, and his 12 errors in 100 games is not very good, though many posters on this thread are wayyyyy overstating his issues on d. Weeks is a good 2nd sacker as it stands, and he still has a chance to be a star.

 

I disagree completely with this, Weeks is probably one of the worst 2B in baseball. Yeah his errors are only near the bottom but his range is close to the worst in baseball if not the worst.

[endaround]

Things keeping Weeks from being the worst:

Craig Biggio/Chris Burke

Ray Durham

Josh Barfield

 

Weeks is 3rd from the bottom in revised Zone rating

Hardball Times

[TooLiveBrew]

as usual, end expands my baseball mind...

 

http://amine.laggoune.free.fr/14%20jack%20dans%20easy%20rider.jpg

 

I think one huge reason for the misconception that Weeks has crazy range is a misunderstanding of what "range" is defined to be. Rickie is 6th in the NL in OOZ (plays turned into outs that are out of the Zone for 2B) - and I think this leads under-/un-informed fans (such as me...) to get confused when Rickie's range is called poor. "Range" is not equal to ground covered, as "Range Factor" merely reports on, essentially, how many putouts & assists were recorded on balls the player fielded (or attempted to field). You could have an amazing RF in a season, but just due to having a ton of easy balls hit your way - and we all know there are fluky occurances in baseball similar to this.

 

Revised Zone Rating looks to be a much more reliable metric, imho. It's those crazy 'holy moly how'd he get to that one' plays that cloud judgment of fielding, imho. Sometimes that's due to a ridiculous play (Weeks behind-the-back flip to J.J. at 2B - gosh was that in '05?), and sometimes that's due to making a bad read off the bat. Does anyone think Weeks's WOAHS are sometimes related to not getting a good read? I know this is one area in which Hardy tends to receive a lot of praise.

 

If you seriously want to continue in a critique of fielding, and have reliable stats to both understand and use, please don't miss the link endaround left. THT's site is simply incredible. Their stat searches/filters alone are great, but they've got great articles/studies, too.

[igor67]

Rickie's defense is passable if he is hitting at least in the .770+ OPS range, but otherwise were giving a lot of ground on the defensive side and not getting it back so much on the offensive. He's nominally better than he was when he first came up. As time goes on though I do wonder if the best decision wouldn't have been to put Rickie out in center and slide Billy over to second.

[Fatter than Joey]

I won't jump in the same boat as FTJ and say I don't think he'll be able to improve

 

Just for clarification -- I never have said that I think he "is unable to improve". I just think after being in MLB for 3 seasons, and his defense still being among the league's worst, it is a bit arbitrary just to declare that "he will get better because of his athleticism" -- certainly he could, I just get more and more dubious of it.

 

Ok then how about if you take away Sheets curveball he isn't much more than an average middle reliever.

 

That is a better analogy. For pitchers to be successful they generally need 3 pitches (starters) -- I see Weeks as having not as many dimensions as his counterparts, or "tools" as the term is better used.

 

He is bad. His error totals fail to reflect how bad. He has 12 errors that he's been charged with but there have been at least 10 occasions where he has made a bad throw on the back end of a DP.

 

Agreed. Last night his spike job cost us an out and 2 runs. Errors as a stat give pretty inaccurate pictures of a players ability.

 

Where in there did you address the similarity between the criticism of Weeks - which is clouded by injury - and the criticism of J.J. - also clouded by injury?

 

I didn't. I thought it was not irrelevant. JJ was a good fielder before his injury, and after. Weeks was a bad fielder before his injury and will likely be after as well.

 

Wow, FTJ -- that's a really disappointing response, IMHO... Sorry I wasted both of our time.

 

I agree with Greg that your responses are usually well thought out, but this time it seems like you are letting your feelings and dislike of Weeks defense cloud your judgement.

 

Sorry guys, I don't know what you want from me. I never said we should DFA Weeks, or trade him for a bag of balls. I have recognized that he has had to deal with injuries, and that may have impeded his development. My take in this thread is largely my opinion. I have thoroughly read and enjoyed your responses, but I remain unswayed by the arguments made.

 

I object in particular to this statement "you are letting your feelings and dislike of Weeks defense cloud your judgment".

 

I do not dislike Weeks. I dislike bad defense.

 

The Brewers are a team struggling to stay over .500 yet...

 

1.) They lead MLB in HRs

2.) They have 2 players that are hitting at an MVP level

3.) They are in the top 5 in K/9 and K/BB in MLB.

4.) They have one of the best closers (this season) in the game.

 

Our defense is killing us and really dragging us down. Certainly Weeks is not the only culprit here, but the one focused on in this thread. Fielder and Braun are bad as well, but are putting up beer-league softball offensive numbers.

 

This season and last (overall), Weeks was about league average offensively according to Pete Palmers batting wins. His defense is a negative. This means a league average player on both sides of the ball would be an upgrade over Weeks.

 

I think it is entirely arbitrary to say "a player is a good athlete therefore he will become a good fielder". I think it is entirely arbitrary to assume that if a players BA raises from .230 to .270 that his previous OBP generated by BBs will scale to the same level.

 

In short, if Weeks continues to play like he is on D, he will probably need to be offensively the best 2b in the NL to keep his job, much like Prince and Braun are at their positions.

[logan82]

I actually think in the long run Hardy, Weeks, and Braun would have been better off with one more season in AAA.

[1992casey]

I'm saving this quote. These are comments left for people of Mench's caliber, not Weeks. I could not disagree more with this poster and I am confident that this poster will eat most of these words. He can save my quote too and stick it in my face if I am wrong, but I doubt it.

Go ahead and save it, but please don't use it. Sticking stuff in member's faces is baiting; that's not allowed here.

I think one huge reason for the misconception that Weeks has crazy range is a misunderstanding of what "range" is defined to be. Rickie is 6th in the NL in OOZ (plays turned into outs that are out of the Zone for 2B) - and I think this leads under-/un-informed fans (such as me...) to get confused when Rickie's range is called poor. "Range" is not equal to ground covered' date=' as "Range Factor" merely reports on, essentially, how many putouts & assists were recorded on balls the player fielded (or attempted to field). You could have an amazing RF in a season, but just due to having a ton of easy balls hit your way - and we all know there are fluky occurances in baseball similar to this.[/quote']Toss in that Range Factor also measures how often a team's pitchers strike batters out. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif It's almost always too messed up to be used at all.

[bobskube]

I'm saving this quote. These are comments left for people of Mench's caliber, not Weeks. I could not disagree more with this poster and I am confident that this poster will eat most of these words. He can save my quote too and stick it in my face if I am wrong, but I doubt it.

Go ahead and save it, but please don't use it. Sticking stuff in member's faces is baiting; that's not allowed here.

I think one huge reason for the misconception that Weeks has crazy range is a misunderstanding of what "range" is defined to be. Rickie is 6th in the NL in OOZ (plays turned into outs that are out of the Zone for 2B) - and I think this leads under-/un-informed fans (such as me...) to get confused when Rickie's range is called poor. "Range" is not equal to ground covered' date=' as "Range Factor" merely reports on, essentially, how many putouts & assists were recorded on balls the player fielded (or attempted to field). You could have an amazing RF in a season, but just due to having a ton of easy balls hit your way - and we all know there are fluky occurances in baseball similar to this.[/quote']Toss in that Range Factor also measures how often a team's pitchers strike batters out. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif It's almost always too messed up to be used at all.

Wasn't sticking it in anyone's face. I just disagreed. If i am wrong, please stick it in my face and I will take it. It is like if the Brewers win the division, I will stick it to Cubs fans. If they win it (and since I live in Chicago) they will be more than happy to stick it to me.

 

By the way, if I offended my friend the Incredible Hulk, I do apologize. But I assume as he is a long-time poster that he just views it as a difference in opinion and not an attack on his personal views. That's what makes this a forum...people don't always agree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I didn't realize when I started this thread that it would result in all out war. I just wanted to give Weeks some props. http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/tongue.gif

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

When Rickie goes...so does the Crew...and Rickie has been going!!! Considering what he battled through in injury and the trip to Nashville, the guy has responded with hard work and performance. Yeah, his glove is indeed erratic, but like most of this team...they are young and they will get better. After a horrendous first 100 games, in my mind Rickie is the team co-MVP (with Prince) since Aug 10.

[logan82]

Sorry guys, I don't know what you want from me.

Perfection at all times.http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/laugh.gif

[Fatter than Joey]

By the way, if I offended my friend the Incredible Hulk, I do apologize. But I assume as he is a long-time poster that he just views it as a difference in opinion and not an attack on his personal views. That's what makes this a forum...people don't always agree.

 

You didn't offend me for one second. -- We are totally cool -- I don't expect people to roll over for me just because of my super cool avatar. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif (which I think takes a back seat to yours). I enjoy spirited debates.

 

I in fact hope you end up being more right than me on this as time marches forward.

 

I just think....

 

1.) Weeks is a bad defender. I guess we look at "regression" in different ways. I tend to look at it in comparison to his peers, others tend to look at it by comparing Rickie07 to Rickie06. I want to see Weeks, improve among his peers, not just himself.

2.) Our IF defense is horrible. Braun/Weeks/Fielder are all butchers in the field. The difference between Braun/Prince and RW , is that PF and RB are the best offensively at their positions, for me to feel good about RW playing 2b, he would have to produce at the top of NL 2b offensively, and he is currently more in the middle of the pack.

3.) Errors and FDG pct. are inadequate measures -- look at the 4th inning last night, Weeks spiked another ball to Prince, it was ruled a hit, and then he pulled Prince of the base on the DP. He got bailed out on both of those.

4.) I don't know the impact of his wrist injury -- I am willing to be patient with Weeks in 2007, as his wrist has probably dropped his performance ceiling.

 

If PF, RB and RW were league ave. defenders, I can guarantee you that we would be 6-7 games in front of the Cubs, instead of neck and neck.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I know we're all still steaming from last night, but how about Rickie Weeks? Since he's returned from Nashville he has been flat out amazing. I'd put him right behind the Prince for August/September team MVP. His approach at the plate has been superb. He's been getting on base like crazy and it's been leading to much better pitches to drive. Case in point...the big homer last night. Some of his teammates could learn a little from the plate discipline. He's still young, he's still got some work to do in the field...but I'm sending out props to Rickie!!! The August/September 2007 version of the Ignitor!!!

[Patrick425]

.449 OBP since August 10th. Just what you would want from a lead off guy.

[MadisonBrewerBlue]

rickies hr last night was one of the biggest of the season until the bullpen implosion