Did we begin to concede, and then change our minds?

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

Looking at our roster moves of this week, I am wondering if we were beginning to concede the division last week and then changed our minds this week. The announcers had been talking for a month about how nice it would be to bring up Vinny Rottino and have the flexibility of a third catcher in September. Now, with Damian day-to-day we bring up Mike Rivera. It is as if we have now decided that Vinny isn't capable of catching in a pennant race. Did we bring him up last week just for experience, like we are the Pirates or Nationals? We brought up Mitch Stetter last week to give us another lefty out of the bullpen. This week we trade for Ray King. Again, were we just going to spoon-feed Stetter some innings on the periphery of a pennant race and now we have decided to get serious about the bullpen. Was it that much easier to get Ray this week than last week. On August 31st we brought up Greg Aquino. On September 1st we brought up Carlos Villanueva. Aquino is eligible for the playoffs. Villanueva is only eligible if we don't have enough players due to injury. That is not playoff thinking.

I don't know if even I believe my own theory here. I just found these moves peculiar.

[bjkrautk]

I was surprised about the decision not to bring up Carlos V. a day earlier, especially when Vargas went on the DL. That being said, the playoff roster issue seems moot, since Carlos will be able to replace one of the injured Brewers who would have been eligible.

 

(Without looking it up, I'm guessing that same loophole doesn't apply to a player who was not on the Brewers minor league roster prior to September 1....ie, Ray King.)

The Brewers had discussions about King before the deadline; I'm guessing that the value of the PTBNL goes significantly down when the player is no longer available to pitch in the post-season. (I'm also guessing that Ray King will be a Brewer in 2008, but that's getting a bit ahead of things.)

 

As for Rivera, I just assumed his call-up was to actually give the Brewers the flexibility of having an extra catcher on the roster. If Miller can't catch for an extended period, this move allows the Brewers to still be able to PH Rottino without forcing one of the position players to catch in an injury situation. Ironically, having another guy at the same position frees up more AB's for Vinny.

[lcbj68c]

Judging from the lineups that were thrown out there everyday, I'd say no, we didn't begin to concede. Had Rivera played a few days in a row, coupled with Lanyce Nix in the outfield and Crabbe at 2nd, then I'd say yeah. I don't think interchanging a few backups on the bench meant the conceding had begun, imo.

[Fatter than Joey]

I don't know if even I believe my own theory here. I just found these moves peculiar.

 

I know what you mean -- the problem is the Cubs & Cards seem to have conceded as well http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

I almost got the impression that we are making moves sort of "in the event we make the playoffs", sort of like when stewardesses say "in the unlikely event of a water landing"

 

I really don't understand the King trade -- not that I am opposed to it -- but it is not as if he will give us a lot of IP that we can use to rest other pitchers with, we can't use him for the playoffs it seems.

 

I think if we were in the AL, or the NL W or E, we'd be packing it in, and preparing for 2008. Being in the Central makes things a bit harder.

[Brian the Automator]

I really don't understand the King trade -- not that I am opposed to it -- but it is not as if he will give us a lot of IP that we can use to rest other pitchers with, we can't use him for the playoffs it seems.

The fact that King won't be a postseason player isn't a big deal, as you only need one LOOGY (Shouse). Having King helps save Shouse's arm by not having to warm him up to get a lefty out all the time. He also helps the team win games in general, as it's better to have an additional LOOGY than to not.

 

But no, to reaffirm, he's not eligible for the postseason roster, even if every pitcher on the 40-man roster succumbed to an injury. So it would have helped to have him on August 31st, but I'm assuming there was a deal in the works with another team that fell through that made that less than possible.

[dadofandrew]

Aquino was brought up to be able to pitch in the bullpen, Carlos had just pitched. Carlos will be eligible for the playoffs. Rivera was brought up to be a 4th C, maybe 3rd with Miller hurt. Stetter to be an extra LHP in the bullpen.

 

I'd say many bandwagon fans conceeded, and I think it's a shame. As for the Brewers, they have tried to win daily, even making many minute moves to do what they can. Trust me, Mel Stocker is not a move to give him playing time, it's a move to possibly win a single game. Any thought otherwise is without merit.

[naivin]

I think you maybe are reading too much into it. Rottino was brought up to be the 3rd option at catcher - so that we had the ability to PH for the catcher during a game without the risk of being stuck without one should something happen to the replacement. Once Damian goes down, we lost that ability. I don't want Rottino being the primary back-up, and hope he doesn't see a single pitch behind the plate. Rivera was brought up to be the back-up, so we could continue to have the ability to PH for the catcher if the situation calls for it.

[jimmyjeromehardy7]

Isn't Carlos V. eligible for the playoffs since he was on the 40 man roster on August 31. I thought it was someone not on the 40 man (Ray King perhaps) that could be added for injury but the playoff roster of 25 could come from any of the 40 as of 8/31.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

We have discussed playoff roster implications in this thread. As I understand it, on August 31st we had 25 active players and 3 on the injured list for a total of 28 on the major league roster. We have to form our play-off roster out of those players. I thought the only way we could add a Carlos Villanueva is if we don't have 25 healthy bodies out of those 28 players, or if we release some of those players. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Brian the Automator]

We have discussed playoff roster implications in this thread. As I understand it, on August 31st we had 25 active players and 3 on the injured list for a total of 28 on the major league roster. We have to form our play-off roster out of those players. I thought the only way we could add a Carlos Villanueva is if we don't have 25 healthy bodies out of those 28 players, or if we release some of those players. Please correct me if I am wrong.

- Your players on the 25-man roster on August 31st are your postseason roster.

- Your players on the 15-day and 60-day DL are also eligible for your postseason roster.

- If one of the August 31'st 25-man roster players gets hurt, you can replace them on your postseason roster with ANY player in the organization who was with the organization on August 31st

If any player goes on the DL in the month of September, Villanueva could be added to the postseason roster.

 

[JohnBriggs12]

I'd like to make this point on the Rivera/Rottino situation.

 

While offensively Rivera hit for a low average and low OBP, he did pop 19 HR and over 60 rbi in 349 AB's. Plus Yost saw him last year when he hit well and in spring when he also was hitting well.

 

Not to be overlooked though is the success of the Nashville pitching staff. They had the lowest ERA (3.57) by nearly half of a run in a hitter's league. Both Rivera and Rottino deserve some credit for handling that staff.

 

Rivera gets ridiculed by some for a weak throwing arm (certainly no worse than Estrada), but he's a veteran backstop and now he doesn't have to limit Rottino to catching, but can use him as PH or fill in somewhere.

 

I think King was acquired specifically for use against the Cardinals who have turned into a decisively lefthanded lineup with Edmonds, Duncan, Ankiel, Branyan, and no Rolen or Encarnacion from the right side. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if Capuano makes one last start against the Redbirds.

[Fatter than Joey]

Having King helps save Shouse's arm by not having to warm him up to get a lefty out all the time. He also helps the team win games in general, as it's better to have an additional LOOGY than to not.

 

I am not sure I agree with this -- It seems like Shouse has been promoted from LOOGY to Matt Wise. Instead perhaps Ray King is now the new LOOGY. I can't imagine a favorable situation where Shouse gets his innings limited or his "arm saved", as he is now one of the Brewers more dependable relievers. My guess is that Ray King is effectively replacing Matt Wise.

[Ennder]

Rivera was brought up after Miller got hurt, if Miller stays healthy he probably doesn't come up.

 

I'm guessing that Bowden blew any chances of that King deal happening earlier, only when he was completely backed into a corner would he give anyone a fair deal.