What is with all the criticism of the fans?

[lumberrule]

In short, people care, and hotdamn, it's better breathing this air than it was having to wait on Matt Stairs to hit his weight.

 

Bingo.

 

For the last decade plus, Milwaukee fans (and all Brewers fans, for that matter) have been pretty much silent, because this team WAS improving. Solid drafts, better scouting, allocation of funds for the most part in the correct places. Fans didn't put pressure on this organization because it was just in the early stages of a plan put into place by Doug Melvin and Co.

 

Now, the pressure is on because the Brewers are in the pennant race. Lets remember...this is the first time Mark A. has felt pressure from the Brewers fans. The first time Ned Yost is REALLY being scrutinized for in-game moves, something EVERY manager of a team in a pennant race has happen to them. This is the first time in a LONG time Doug Melvin has been involved in a pennant race situation. Collectively, all three are acting as such...defensive and trying to point the criticism back to the place it came.

 

The Ray King trade today is a perfect example. Melvin is acting as GM right now in a "reactionary" mode, positioning the club based on recent past performance. On the other hand, look at the Cubs...they made a similar type of minor move lately acquiring Steve Traschel; not because there was an immediate need for him, but because the Cubs play something like 25 games in 24 days, and chances are during that time, they probably might need an emergency spot start or two.

 

Yost is as defensive as I have EVER seen him. What irks me so much about him is that he will NEVER admit making a mistake when, both at the time and in hindsight, it was obvious to anyone with a pulse. All we hear is something like "the fans don't have a clue" or "he pitched well, just had a bad inning". Ned doesn't seem to really learn from his errors, and that is what disgusts me the most. He'll manage the team "by the book" for one stretch, and then manage "from his gut" in another stretch. You just cant do that in today's baseball, with nearly every position (especially in the bullpen) as specialized as it is.

 

To make a long story short, the criticism of the fans is, in my view, a very defensive reaction from a group of management guys who are feeling the effects of a pennant race for the first time together...and they don't know how to handle it.

[dadofandrew]

Being critical of Matt Stairs, a very solid MLB player for over a decade now, does not do much to bolster the supposed understanding of the game either. Stairs is still a contributor a half-decade after he was a solid role player in MIL.

 

Pretty much proving the point for us. It's a lack of even understanding who is and who is not a good player. Matt will never be a star, but he has a place on nearly any team in MLB. Making fun of his weight or "shape" is pretty much exactly what fans do that just don't get it.

[RockCoCougars]

I've been squarely in Yost's corner up until the recent collapse. The only problem that I have with him is how he handles his bullpen. Unfortunately that is a HUGE problem which I feel has cost the team 5-10 games this season. Early in the season, it didn't bother me too much because even with a blown game here and there, the team was still well above 500. Case in point, he would not use Cordero for even one hitter in the 8th inning back when he was basically unhittable. Going further, he leaves guys in way too long. I can remember those consecutive games in June??? where he left Turnbow out there when he looked like a deer in the headlights. He also ran Spurling out there several times in close games where he had no business being out there. Why is he using McClung in close games? This guy was given up on by a team with perhaps one of the worst bullpens in history.

 

The fact is this team has blown way too many late inning leads to not question the manager at least somewhat. In my opinion, if this team doesn't make the playoffs, Yost needs to go.

[dadofandrew]

Assorted boos during the Biggio gift ceremony, only audible because no one really applauded either. How cool do you have to be to boo Klements' sausages and Pepsi products?

[gregmag]

Well, I still really miss the days when the Brewers featured Johnsonville sausages. Also, as it happens, I pretty strongly prefer Coke products. But I'm not very cool at all, so your point is well taken.

 

Greg.

[1992casey]

As noted in reply 10 and in reply 16, this thread is not for evaluating Ned's job performance and is definitely not a thread for discussing in-game situations.

[Baldkin]

Would they rather have fans not caring and not watching as they were the last 10 years?

 

The more that care, the more that criticize.

[lcbj68c]

I think it's ok for Mark A. and whomever to criticize the fans, just like the fans criticized the team with their boos. If the fans want to get whiny, then the management can get whiny and it just solves everything. Whining all around wins ball games, didn't you know? Opinions are like, ya well you know. Fans that open their mouths now think it's unfathomable for an unpolite response. Seemingly, I don't think Mark A. got to the position he did in his corporate life by kissing a bunch of arse. Aquino surely heard the boos coming in, as did Estrada and the whole team and I'm sure it had an effect on the wild pitches, passed balls, etc. The kid seemingly didn't even have a chance. I've always wondered how much athletes really mean the whole victory speech when they say, "We couldn't have done it without the fans". I wasn't at the game yesterday, but that would have embarrassed me as a fan and having been an athlete or a coach of the team, I would have said, "welll gee, thanks for the support" with plenty of sarcasm abound. But hey, it's Yost's and Mark A's fault this team hasn't been to the playoffs in 25 years, so it's ok to boo. After all, I didn't pay $25.00 to watch this? Nevermind the fact that the other team is trying to win too. I don't like my team losing either, but they "hey, you can't talk to us like that, we're fans!" attitude is pathetic. I pay your salary, because I attend a game a homstand or whatever. Supporting the team through thick and thin doesn't seem to happen around here lately when it's been thin. What was a better response from Mark A? Umm, yeah we'll try harder? As if they weren't trying hard enough, they had 40,000 booing before the kid even threw a pitch.

[TooLiveBrew]

Aquino surely heard the boos coming in, as did Estrada and the whole team and I'm sure it had an effect on the wild pitches, passed balls, etc. The kid seemingly didn't even have a chance.

 

Kid? He's 29. And he's not exactly a rookie. Your logic is a tad off here, imho. I'm sure the booing made Johnny Estrada continue to be a poor defensive catcher, right? Just like cheering was the reason Braun hit a HR tonight? I don't think so.

[lcbj68c]

Did I say was the reason or had an effect? I think there is significant reasoning that lack of support (booing) has an effect on one's mental abilities to perform. Not to mention, just unclassy http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm sure it had an effect on the wild pitches, passed balls, etc.

 

So you just meant it made Acquino 40% more likely to throw a WP, and Estrada 40% more likely to let a PB go by? http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif (that's a reference to another thread, just didn't know if you'd be familiar...) I guess I don't get your distinction here - if you felt it played a role, or was a cause, in either good or bad outcomes, I strongly disagree. Acquino stinking at pitching is what led him to be wild. Estrada being poopy at playing defense is what led to the PB, and Braun being a fantastic hitter is what led to his HR tonight. That's the way I see it.

[lcbj68c]

I don't have percentages. 42.7 16.8? Who knows. I don't believe it helped the team or the athletes for 40,000 people to not believe in the guy before he even throws a pitch and start booing. Surely it didn't help any confidence he may or may not have had, regardless of how bad the general public of non professional athletes themselves thinks he sucks. There are some studies that do indeed show booing has an influence in performance, such as "Spectator Booing and the Home Advantage: A Study of Social Influence in the Basketball Arena" by Donald L. Greer. Again, fans have a right to boo the result if they want, but I think it's snobish almost to think they are untouchable when it's thrown right back at them the next day. Certainly there must be a better way to support the team under that circumstance than boo a pitching move? But again, some fans think that $25.00 a homestand is enough support to buy managers that never make mistakes in judgement, players that never make errors, and pitchers that never walk or hit batters. "How dare the manager, G.M., or majority owner talk about me like that, I pay their salary!"

[Schlitz001]

For a team that has been bad for so long it seems like a weird time to boo.

[lcbj68c]

That was my feeling schlitz. Maybe boo after the fact, but certainly not before. And even then, don't feel slighted about an owner, manager, or player being upset that you did boo. I'm sure they want your support. I'm sure they are trying their best. And I'm sure the support doesn't hurt their performance.

[lcbj68c]

"I'm not getting the job done. I'm as disapppointed in myself as the fans are." Boom. Done. Fans go away and cheer you the next time you come out.

 

Or until you have another bad outing. Fans boo because their feelings are hurt and they don't care if they hurt the performance of their players. It takes away a chunk of the home field advantage and I don't like it. I want my team to win more than I want to make make myself feel better.

 

Russ posted this in the Zambrano thread and I have to give him a +2 on his comments. I think it sums up how I feel, so I am hijacking his comments and reposting them.

[saget]

I like when fans criticize other fans for not being a good enough fan.

 

Also, I didn't like Linebrink's comments after the game.

 

"It's certainly a boost for us to play in front of a full ballpark," Linebrink said. "If they decided to root for us, that would be even better."

 

Kind of funny, but unneeded.

[Mr QL]

It would be boost if Linebrink didn't completely blow during his time here before he bolts after the season.

 

If these players can't handle the heat from Milwaukee fans, then I think they're in the wrong profession, babies.

[lumberrule]

Agreed. If any other team in a pennant race would play like the Brewers have played since the All Star break, they would be booed too. By their own admission, this team has not been playing well and has underachieved since then.

 

Milwaukee fans have been supportive to the hilt of this team. They're gonna come close to setting the attendance record at Miller Park. Sellouts on WEEKNIGHT home games. Increases of sales and apparel and merchandise by like 50% (i believe thats what Mark A. said the other night). According to the JS, this team is gonna make $150 million in revenue this year.

 

If you want to get rooted for, boys, play like you're capable. Its hard to cheer when constant errors, bad pitches, passed balls, horrible at-bats with runners on base, and boneheaded managerial moves lose this team games.

[RU Rah Rah]

"It's certainly a boost for us to play in front of a full ballpark," Linebrink said. "If they decided to root for us, that would be even better."

He really said that? It's way too snarky for someone who has been around less than a half-season and hasn't exactly been Walter Johnson out there on the hill.

Again, even if their gripes have some merit, I don't know why players or management ever publicly complain about the fans. Getting scolded by Linebrink (or Mark A.) for being too critical is not going to suddenly put me in an angelic, no-boo mode. Human nature being what it is, it's probably going to have precisely the opposite effect.

From a P.R. standpoint, the appropriate public response should be something along the lines of: "We're happy to know that fans in Milwaukee are so passionate about baseball, and we're pleased as punch over attendance this year. We know that fans can get frustrated when we lose, but, believe you me, no one hates losing more than the players/manager/owner." Period.

[bjkrautk]

"There's not a lot of teams I've been on in a division race, where you're in control of the game and don't give up the lead and you still get booed," Linebrink said.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=657355

 

...and I tend to agree with him. It's one thing to be disappointed when something doesn't work out, it's another to second-guess. The fans last night went even further, pre-emptively booing a decision that ultimately worked.

[xiaogao]

Booing is going to happen, but a lot of the booing at Miller Park recently has been both classless and immature. We should hold off on booing because it's the right thing to do; more self-interestedly, Milwaukee fans can't afford to be just a little bit better than the big market teams' fans, there has to be some advantage to playing here.

I cringe when people post things like, "Things would be way worse in another city that lost a 8 1/2 game lead..." It's a pretty juvenile type of moral reasoning: "that person's way worse than I am, so I'm exempt from criticism." While I normally can't stand Zambrano or his pitching, one of his melodramatic comments made a lot of sense. Would you ever boo your brother or son if he had pitched like Linebrink did last night, somehow loading the bases off of three decent pitches? The guy was pitching fine, he knew it, Yost knew it, yet the crowd gave him no support and he had to do it on his own. I know: they're professionals. They're professionals so they can be subjected to the kind of impersonal mass criticism that none of us would ever have heart to do to anyone we know or the guts to do to any player's face.

If that's not motivation, this might be a little help for the self-interested. What does Milwaukee have to offer a veteran player? One of the posters off-handedly commented on Linebrink leaving next year anyway. Why wouldn't he? If you're not from Milwaukee, why would you stay here? It's not the most sought after position in baseball, with one of the smallest markets in the country (see Yi Jian Lian). You'd stay because you were treated differently.

I try to defend Milwaukee every chance I get, telling people it's underrated and that the people more than make up for it. Apparently the committed, loyal Packers fans don't make it to Brewer games. Packers fans know the only way to keep and attract great players is to make them feel supported and appreciated. They also know that's just how you are supposed to treat other people. We can negatively assume that our young players are just going to take off to bigger markets once they're free agents and treat our team like they're mercenaries, but all we'll get from them is mercenary play back.

If there's no difference between the fans in small and large markets, small markets will never retain players. If you got booed in Milwaukee and booed in New York, where would you rather play? Not only is it wrong to compare ourselves to New York, Philly, and Chicago, it doesn't pay. We can't compete with them if we're just like them. We have to treat our team differently. The sad thing is, we haven't had a winning season yet and we're already booing like we're entitled. We've got amazing young players who are going to become really jaded really fast. So in the end, the only way to keep them is to do the right thing. Imagine that.

[Fatter than Joey]

I never boo. I can't imagine a scenario where I would. I think it is one thing to be critical of a team and its play/strategy, it's an another thing to boo them while they are trying to do their jobs.

 

I remember awhile back we had a couple threads about booing/taunting by the fans -- and some of the pro-booing crowd said things like "when I get booed it fires me up to perform better" and "the best way to shut up a crowd is to hit a couple of shots".

 

However, it seems that it isn't that simple.

[homer]

Brewer fans are quickly turning into Cub fans.

[JJHardy7]

I think it's a fans right to boo. We've blown SO many leads and we've won like what 2 games when trailing after 8? I think the Brewers fans may expect too much out of the players, but expectations are high after the way we started.

 

It is disappointing to hear this stuff from Scott. In a way, the Brewers fans were cheering Shouse by booing Yost for taking him out on Monday. I'd like to think the majority of Brewers fans are pretty baseball savy and have a reason behind booing.

 

I think it's more of the oh no let's not do this again booing rather than I really dislike Scott.

 

Is there a link from the quote about playing in front of a full park or whatever?

[homer]

"I think it's more of the oh no let's not do this again booing rather than I really dislike Scott. "

 

Which is really lame. Why boo before something bad happens? Do people really think booing helps motivate? It seems to have the opposite effect based on Linebrink and Fielder's recent comments.

 

Last comment from me before I bow out: booing occassionally is fine. I don't do it but I realize some fans do. But when you boo ALL the freakin' time don't you think that tends to make you look like a whiney little kid? I wonder if people will start booing Braun for only hitting solo home runs.