What is with all the criticism of the fans?

[endaround]

I think Yost makes some bad decisions, but he's not out there tripping over his feet in right field or walking leadoff guys or committing passed balls. He made one bad decision the other day, but that particular game should have never gotten to that point.

 

I think people just have their undies in a bunch that the team is in a bad division and continues to shoot itself in the foot on the field.

There is a huge difference. Hart didn't think "I really should just completely muff this". Yost did think"Mench versus Dempster with the game on the line? Great idea!" and "Aquino versus Pence? I like it!".

 

[homer]

End,

I don't disagree but Yost is not the only one screwing up. And Yost never gets credit when he does something right - like starting a .218 Craig Counsell over red hot Rickie Weeks. Had Counsell gone 0-4 or K'd during the AB he got the triple, people would have been screaming bloody murder. I'm sure people were PO'd Braun was removed at the end of the game for defensive reasons even though it was the smart thing to do.

[JohnBriggs12]

The focus on fan's criticism is due in large part to the ever increasing disconnect between the Brewer fandom and the softer than soft coverage of the team from it's primary mouthpieces, namely the Journal-Sentinal and WTMJ.

 

Now Haudricourt has gotten in a few jabs at Yost from time to time, but he's not anti Yost by any means. WTMJ? It's a Brewer management cheerleading squad there.

 

In Chicago last year, the media just skewered Dusty Baker. They reflected the Cub fandom in doing so. Dusty focused his ire at the media, not the fans, but those fans were just as fed up with Dusty as the media. In Milwaukee, the major media outlets still seem to want to please the Brewers instead of catering to the fans.

[Bucky Rules]

There is a huge difference. Hart didn't think "I really should just completely muff this". Yost did think"Mench versus Dempster with the game on the line? Great idea!" and "Aquino versus Pence? I like it!".

Do you really think he thought that??? Or did he possibly think, " boy, all my options suck here... Jenkins can't hit his way out of a paper bag for the last week and a half, so I might as well give Mench a shot", and "Pence pounds lefties, so I want to get Shouse out, but try to save Cordero for the 9th"

 

You can disagree with the decision, but to act like there is no justification for every move that backfires, is short-sighted. IMO, he did a better job managing yesterday's game than Cooper did, but - as is most often the case - the manager has very little to do with the outcome. If Turnbow holds a lead, or Aquino gets an out, or Loretta doesn't make a fantastic play, or... on and on and on. The players win and lose the games.

 

There is no manager in the game that is going to make every move you would like to see. Mike Scioscia gets all the credit in the world around the league, yet he gives up more outs in a week than Yost gives up in a year -- and he manages in the freaking AL. Even LaRussa who I generally like as a game manager (though he really irritates me in some unexplainable fashion), hits the pitcher 8th on occasion, which I see no benefit to doing.

 

It just doesn't matter. But, if it makes you guys happy to fire Ned Yost, and bring in the next guy that the Brewers will win in spite of, I'll still be a Brewer fan.

[jhart05]

First, I do admit to being a Yost supporter all year, a "Yost apologist" as some people like to say. The way I see it, we as fans don't know what's going on in the dugout/sidelines at the time, so I always give the manager/coach the benefit of the doubt. I don't dwell on every little move normally. "Should have put in this pitcher", "should have left in that pitcher", whatever. The way I see it, the player still has to do his darn job regardless of who the manager is or what the situation is. The player has to throw good pitches, or not swing at a pitch in his eyes, or field the ball cleanly and make a good throw.

 

But there are three things lately that I've had a hard time figuring out and/or defending to the "Fire Yost" people.

 

1) The Hart strikeout call in Chicago on that pitch about 2 feet outside. I feel he should have had one of those Earl Weaver-type, dirt kicking, base throwing, hat turned around yelling in the umps face, get kicked out and suspended for 3 games, RANT. At the very least it would fire up the troops.

 

2) Mench should have been pinch hit for at the end of that same game. If not with Jenks, then with Counsell. Either one of those guys knows how to take a pitch. If they don't get the hit, maybe they at least work another walk out of a pitcher who was obviously wild at the time.

 

3) Yesterday…I don't care what "the numbers" said. Why not let Shouse, who has been your best reliever since the break, face one more batter. If he still gets beat, then fine, you lost with your current best reliever on the mound. It's not like he had been out there for 2 or 3 innings or you were bringing in your closer. It was Aquino. A guy you know stinks. I mean that's why he was sent back down in the first place, and he's only on the roster now, because of the September call-ups.

 

[jeffy]

Even LaRussa who I generally like as a game manager (though he really irritates me in some unexplainable fashion)

That's funny, I feel exactly the same way about the guy...http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/happy.gif

[RU Rah Rah]

And has anyone ever benefited from complaining about the fans? It always seems to work out badly.

[Jay Zahn]

Keeping this on topic, I understand the frustration of the fans. The team hasn't won in forever. Moreover, they had a lead and have lost it, and due to a poor bullpen have had more lost leads than they have come from behind victories.

 

Compare us to the Cardinals. We're a half game ahead of them, still. The Cardinals are not a good team this year, plus now they have a ton of injuries. Are Cardinals fans happier? Probably. They just won a championship last year, with not the strongest team to boot, so they're probably in a very forgiving mood. Plus they've come from back in the pack - much more enjoyable than losing a lead. They've also had a stronger bullpen than us, and weaker starters, so more opportunities for satisfying come-from-behind wins.

 

Yost has probably become a lightning rod because the failures of the team have generally been spaced out among many players. Last year there were many injuries and Turnbow's meltdown, so those got a lot of attention. This year, what player do you blame? Hall and Weeks have been down, but Hall had the position switch to deal with and Weeks had the wrist injury. Capuano has been the most disappointing player, I'd wager. The bullpen has been sort of below average all over, and even Cordero has been average to good and not really great for a closer. Brian Shouse is not the second coming.

 

The fan criticism of Yost has gotten ridiculous - people are second guessing taking Braun out for defense in the 8th with a 3 run lead. That's moronic.

[TooLiveBrew]

No, it isn't. The team, as you so eagerly mention, has been blowing leads just like yesterdays for a while now, and a 3-run lead has been completely unsafe. Had Braun's spot not been due to come up as soon as it was, ok, I'm fine with the move. Or if he wasn't Ryan Freakin' Braun. If this was some average hitter who struggles defensively, fine. But this isn't. And if this team was not completely capable & prone to blowing leads lately, fine. But this team is. It's another example of how Yost manages for what he hopes will work out, instead of putting his team in the best position he can to win the game. Stop calling people morons, especially when you don't take the time to think about the other side's opinion(s).

[scrapiron]

I think the criticism of fans is warranted. This incessant whining and crying has gone on since early June at the first sign of a slump, and has really never let up. I certainly don't blame fans for being upset now, but the same complaining they are doing now was same complaining they were doing when things weren't nearly this bad, or were even good. It can't help the teams psyche when they are constantly being told they suck and are/will blow it throughout most of the season. I think I'd be just a little irked at the fans too.

[dadofandrew]

The fans are being criticized because the vast majority of them have no clue, and with rare exceptions, are just second guessing...even the stuff that has worked very well, Turnbow/Cordero in the 8th and 9th; and defensive shifts have been brought up, because they do not work 100% of the time.

 

If only Loretta would have been playing his normal 2B position yesterday, but instead, he was several feet up the middle, based on scouting and mathematics. Only questioning moves that don't work is exactly what has been going on, and to be honest, is painfully obvious.

[mark brouhard is number on]

totally agree. i think many of the so called 'fans' expect too much. hell we can't win evry game, and every manager makes what we think are bad decisions. little do we know what goes into these decisions. i'm sure ned knows a little bit more about his team than we do. and the decision to replace braun was a good one. every decent team this time of year replaces weaker defensive players with stronger ones, especially with a three run lead. people who pick that for a reason to cry about ned yost have no idea about baseball and should probably just keep their thoughts to themselves.

[sheethead]

There is a very good reason fans have been complaining about Yost for months now. Personally, I have been complaining since the 2nd Aquino loss back in April. Now, over 3 months later, Ned makes the same mistake. His supporters have no ground to stand on, so stop calling the see-clearers whiners and criers. At least 3 games in the past week and a half have been compromised by Ned Yost's decision making. The fans have every right to call him out on these games. The fans don't deserve the criticism, especially not the ones that booed Yost's move to Aquino yesterday. Those booing fans should be called in for job interviews IMO.

[nsimps]

I think the fans are rightly showing their frustration. The front office and ownership has implied through actions and words that this is a year for the Brewers to be really competitive. And although I understand that we're only 1.5 games out right now, the team blowing leads and letting opportunities slip away to gain or put ground on the Cubs is really frustrating. Also, to imply that the fans haven't been "supportive" of the team is ridiculous because fans are buying tickets and merchandise in record numbers. The Brewers are just victims of their early success in April and May and the lingering effect that's had on the rest of season.

[Bucky Rules]

especially not the ones that booed Yost's move to Aquino yesterday. Those booing fans should be called in for job interviews IMO.

I'm pretty sure they booed well before it was known that Aquino was the one coming in.

[TooLiveBrew]

Only questioning moves that don't work is exactly what has been going on, and to be honest, is painfully obvious.

 

This is simply not true.

[sheethead]

especially not the ones that booed Yost's move to Aquino yesterday. Those booing fans should be called in for job interviews IMO.

I'm pretty sure they booed well before it was known that Aquino was the one coming in.

 

That is not the impression i got while watching on FSN. The boos became much more prominant after Aquino walked onto the field from the bullpen.

[JohnBriggs12]

"people are second guessing taking out Braun in the 8th inning for defense with a 3 run lead. That's moronic."

 

I disagree. It's not moronic to question that move. Not with this team coughing up leads routinely. When you double switch out Braun, you put the pitcher in the 3 hole. That's fine if you still have Hall or Mench to hit in that spot, but because of Jenkins injury, Hall was already in the game, and for some reason Yost thought Mench is a huge upgrade over Gross in LF so he replaced Gross there too. That left him with the untested Rottino to bat in the key AB of the game. That he got robbed is beside the point. Braun might have gone deep.

 

Anytime you remove a bat as potent as Braun for defense you are giving up a huge bat and you lesson your chances to retaliate if the lead is lost. Personally, I don't mind 9th inning defensive replacements or earlier for 5-6 run leads, but not before in 3 run games.

[Fatter than Joey]

The fans are being criticized because the vast majority of them have no clue

 

How do they differ from the coaching staff? -- I am being serious.

 

Why should the fans be criticized for having no clue? -- They aren't being paid to have a clue. On the other hand our clueless coaching staff is being financed by the clueless fanbase to have a clue.

 

Only questioning moves that don't work is exactly what has been going on, and to be honest, is painfully obvious.

 

To be honest AL, this is an incredibly shallow argument for someone of your caliber to make.

 

The dynamic that Nedophiles are either completely ignoring or completely oblivious to is that people are not questioning moves that don't work, rather questioning the low percentage chance of said move working out. Ned is making moves that have comparatively minuscule chances of working.

 

Basically people are watching Ned stroll up to the roulette table and instead of betting red/black or odd/even, yelling "hit me".

 

In short in a 50/50 world Ned's money is on green.

[mark brouhard is number on]

how would you have felt if braun was still in and made an error that led to runs. then you would have asked why ned didn't pull him for defensive reasons with a three run lead. all this second guessing on this site is making me sick.

[Fatter than Joey]

then you would have asked why ned didn't pull him for defensive reasons with a three run lead.

 

Not me. If the Brewers were up 6-5 in the 9th and Braun was not coming to bat -- I am all for it, otherwise I am pretty content with our best offensive weapon making errors.

[jhart05]

The fans are being criticized because the vast majority of them have no clue, and with rare exceptions, are just second guessing...even the stuff that has worked very well, Turnbow/Cordero in the 8th and 9th; and defensive shifts have been brought up, because they do not work 100% of the time.

I do agree with you here. I've long thought the average Milwaukee sports fan is an idiot. Just listen to them after a Packer loss.

 

I've been a Yost supporter all year, because as I said, we as fans don't know what's going on in the dugout or the bullpen at the time of the decision.

 

But I'm having a real hard time defending him after yesterday and after the Chicago game where Hart got called out on strikes and Mench was batting to end the game.

[BrewCityUnit]

Anyone defending Yost right now has no legs to stand on. Greg Aquino ladies and gentlemen. The same pitcher who was not good enough to be on our team all year was good enough for Ned yesterday in a big situation. Not pulling Mench for Jenkins or Counsel last week was about as bad as it got, so I thought, but yesterday definately took the cake. I was shaking my head when McClung came out instead of Linebrink as well. It is like Yost just says to himself, maybe this could work and if it does, then I am a genious.

 

In my mind, Shouse was not the answer yesterday either...the answer to me was Cordero.

[sheethead]

The fans are being criticized because the vast majority of them have no clue, and with rare exceptions, are just second guessing...even the stuff that has worked very well, Turnbow/Cordero in the 8th and 9th; and defensive shifts have been brought up, because they do not work 100% of the time.

I do agree with you here. I've long thought the average Milwaukee sports fan is an idiot. Just listen to them after a Packer loss.

 

I've been a Yost supporter all year, because as I said, we as fans don't know what's going on in the dugout or the bullpen at the time of the decision.

 

But I'm having a real hard time defending him after yesterday and after the Chicago game where Hart got called out on strikes and Mench was batting to end the game.

 

One thing you might want to keep in mind is the average Milwaukee sports fan isn't likely to be found posting on this site. I can tell you seriously, I am not an average sports fan and do think rationally about the game. This is why its hard for me to sit in the Terrace level (other than it being a crappy seat). Too many of your average Milwaukee sports fans sitting up there.

[Bring Back the Stein]

This debate has been going on all year, and the fact that I've even said anything probably corrodes my argument that I'm sick of the argument. That said, the fact that this tiresome debate rages tiresomely is a sign of the health, not the weakness, of the Brewers organization and the fan community. We're big-time, baby!

 

There are enough lip-pursing bitties, er, rational thinkers, on one side who heave to with great expressions of tut-tut for those who would dare to offend the king's, er, Prince's, majesty. Any outburst of emotion is rejoined by a baseball-reference.com.-referenced lecture delivered with such piety as though it was issued from the Chair of Peter.

 

And there are enough sinning Hester Prynnes like me who believe that it is our God-given right to cry sour pickles at the mere sight of Greg "I'm-not-the-one-that-Marcos-killed" Aquino.

 

In short, people care, and hotdamn, it's better breathing this air than it was having to wait on Matt Stairs to hit his weight.