What a beautiful bullpen our GM put together for '07

[sweepscc]

The reason we aren't going to the playoffs this year isn't Ned Yost. I'm sure that will be the popular conclusion but it's mainly on Doug Melvin, imo. He continues to bank on retreads and AAAA relievers and we won't be legit until we spend some money or equity on some proven arms.(Linebrink pick-up was a joke; Pads fans were laughing at us)

[RyDogg66]

Yeah, maybe he could have signed Bobby Howry, Scott Eyre, Kyle Farnsworth, Tom Gordon....

 

What did you want him to do? Trade for Mariano Rivera to set up? By definition, middle relievers are typically the worst pitchers in baseball. Not good enough to start, not good enough to close.

 

I agree that the bullpen has been putrid but part of it is the way Yost has used guys. Oh, and Linebrink has been considered to be a very, very good set up guy for a few years.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

Doug deserves blame for not putting together a better bullpen. But Ned abused it and it exploded. He threw guys for too many innings in too short of time. I posted in May that Ned was doing the same stuff this year that he did last year, which failed. He blew out Cordero, Turnbow, and Villanueva. He would use Shouse for multiple innings in losses and then not have a LOOGY available for the next day. In Ned's five years as manager our closer has always run out of gas by about the all-star game. In 2003 we traded DeJean and went to Kolb so it wasn't as noticeable. But the rest of the bullpen went south that year (I am referring to the pitchers we kept). Kolb closed throughout 2004 but he wasn't nearly as effective in August and September. We won so few games at the end of that year that he didn't have many chances to blow games. This year we had too many starters pitching too few innings. I think that if we had inserted Villanueva then that would have taken some of the pressure off of the bullpen.

I agree that Doug should have done a better job of stocking the bullpen. I also think that when you put Gomer Pyle in charge of the army that you will lose the war anyways.

[Ennder]

The Bullpen has a .708 OPS against even with the crappy defense. Their ERA is 4.20 but has probably pitched better than that looks.

 

Dessens, Spurling, Aquino and Capellan make up a large part of the problems with the bullpen and none of those guys should be pitching in important situations if Yost had a clue. Villanueva has also hurt it but mostly because Yost abused him so much early in the season.

 

The bullpen is not the problem, the chucklehead running it is.

[lumberrule]

You also have to lay some blame at the feet of Mike Maddux. If he's such a genius, why is our ENTIRE pitching staff gone to hell this year?

 

Lou Pinella has made a bullpen consisting of Ryan Dempster, Bob Howry, Carlos Marmol, and Scott Eyre work for most of the year. No reason Ned can't make this bullpen work.

[Brian the Automator]

To put together a better bullpen, you would have needed:

 

a) more money

b) to trade valuable players for one

 

When you're a small-market club, the bullpen's usually where you have to skimp. I'm not saying he did the best he could do, but I honestly don't know what could have been done better.

[Ennder]

You also have to lay some blame at the feet of Mike Maddux. If he's such a genius, why is our ENTIRE pitching staff gone to hell this year?

 

Lou Pinella has made a bullpen consisting of Ryan Dempster, Bob Howry, Carlos Marmol, and Scott Eyre work for most of the year. No reason Ned can't make this bullpen work.

 

It hasn't gone to heck this year. The team's FIP is in the top half of the NL. Baseballprospectus listed us as having the 7th best rotation out of playoff contenders based on qERA. The big problem has been the fielding, we are still 90 plays behind the Cubs in plus/minus. Yes, 90 plays have occured this year that the Cubs make and we don't. There is your difference in our pitching. Plays like Hart missing the flyball the other day, Gross missing the one today, the two balls that got past Braun that some other 3B get to today etc. Those things are what is killing the pitching more than anything else.

 

We also have one of the worst LOB% in baseball and thats largely because Yost is clueless about how to handle a pitching staff, he leaves starters in a little too long, uses the wrong RP's in key situations and is generally clueless.

[brettac1]

Relievers are so unpredictable that the smart thing to do is just throw a bunch of guys at the wall and see what sticks. There are very few that are consistent year in and year out. One of them is Cordero. Linebrink is allegedly elite.

 

This bullpen was a strength coming into the season, in my eyes, with some very good arms like Cordero, Turnbow, and Wise, along with Shouse and Villanueva.

[pitchleague]

Yeah, maybe he could have signed Bobby Howry, Scott Eyre, Kyle Farnsworth, Tom Gordon....

 

What did you want him to do? Trade for Mariano Rivera to set up? By definition, middle relievers are typically the worst pitchers in baseball. Not good enough to start, not good enough to close.

 

I agree that the bullpen has been putrid but part of it is the way Yost has used guys. Oh, and Linebrink has been considered to be a very, very good set up guy for a few years.

I'll add on to rydogg's post and state that I believe Melvin did try to find relievers but there just wasn't much out there in free-agency that was any better than what we had. Unless we overpaid for somebody.

 

[pitchleague]

You also have to lay some blame at the feet of Mike Maddux. If he's such a genius, why is our ENTIRE pitching staff gone to hell this year?

 

Lou Pinella has made a bullpen consisting of Ryan Dempster, Bob Howry, Carlos Marmol, and Scott Eyre work for most of the year. No reason Ned can't make this bullpen work.

I wouldn't be too quick to make fun of Dempster, Howry, Marmol, and Eyre. Have you looked at their numbers? They're pretty good.

 

I understand that each one has had their share of Turnbow-esque breakdowns but overall, the Cubs have 4 Turnbows that are good 90% of the time, whereas we have 1 Turnbow that is good 90% of the time and 3 other guys that are good 40-50% of the time. Makes a big difference.

 

 

 

[billyhallfan]

if Wise wouldn't be mentally shaken up after he hit Lopez in the face, we aren't even having this discussion.

[brewcrew00]

Majority of the time GM and Manager go hand in hand. I'm not sure how some of you can be so anti-Yost and pro-Melvin. Attanasio signs the checks, Melvin signs the talent, and Yost takes the heat for Doug's crap stockpile. Who's he supposed to keep turning to? I feel like we have a team built on guys most other teams would "take a flier on." (With the obvious exception of home grown talent).

[JohnBriggs12]

"if Wise wouldn't be mentally shaken up after he hit Lopez in the face, we aren't even having this discussion"

 

He's been bad after August 1 ever since he's been a Brewer so I don't think it all can be pinned on the beaning.

[endaround]

Yes if only Melvin gave Yost a top end closer...oh wait he did. If only he had a great lefy specialist--oh wait he does.

[TooLiveBrew]

As far as the Cubs comparisons go, yes to all 3, but take out Eyre. He's been bad this year. The 4th name you want is Michael Wuertz. (Marmol especially is filthy).

[Postseason2006]

I'm sorry but Chris Spurling isn't even AAA material. The guy has given up quite a few meaningful, game crushing homers this year. That is Melvin's fault not too mention pissing away farm talent for Federlinebrink.

[paul253]

Yes if only Melvin gave Yost a top end closer...oh wait he did. If only he had a great lefy specialist--oh wait he does.

If only he gave Yost 5 other pitchers that knew how to pitch with a lead...

[mark brouhard is number on]

why do all fans constantly look for someone to blame. ever think maybe the players just aren't getting it done. quit looking for people to blame and enjoy the games, no matter how frustrating they can be.

[naivin]

Yeah, I have a had time getting on Melvin or Yost for the state of the bullpen. A terrible defensive team, and starting rotation that simply cannot work deep into games on the other hand...Melvin definitley takes his share of blame for that.

[BrewCrewRising]

Taking into account Ennder's stats above, and Rluz's comments in another thread the other day.....this is the Doug Melvin model; he concentrates a little more on hitting and the defense doesn't get as much consideration. So, what should we do? I can't imagine getting rid of Braun or Fielder because their D is shakey. Maybe Rickie, but that would be anathema to many fans.

 

When you have so much invested in a young team, how do restructure it to get better defense? I don't envy the GM who has to figure that out. Try to get the Astros to trade Pence for Braun straight up and move Billy Hall back to 3rd? Trade Rickie and reinvest his value back into prospects and a solid D 2nd baseman?

 

As far as upgrading the middle relief goes...I think Brian is spot on. This is where we roll the dice with waiver wire pickups and younger players and try to catch lightening in the bottle model and hope that the wild metaphor mixture somehow transforms itself into a decent bullpen.

[Fatter than Joey]

Lou Pinella has made a bullpen consisting of Ryan Dempster, Bob Howry, Carlos Marmol, and Scott Eyre work for most of the year. No reason Ned can't make this bullpen work.

 

One thing I have noticed about the Cubs -- is that their best pitcher, Marmol, is most often pitching in the highest leverage situations, which are oftentimes not the 9th inning or pre-defined closer's role. I don't know if Pinella has done this by design, or if it is dumb luck, it has worked for them though.

 

ever think maybe the players just aren't getting it done.

 

This is what we said in 2003, 2004. Then Melvin needs to get fired for not having players that can execute.

 

I'm sorry but Chris Spurling isn't even AAA material. The guy has given up quite a few meaningful, game crushing homers this year.

 

At one time our pitching staff had 13 players. Every BP should have a mop-up guy. Spurling was fine in that role, if your mop-up guy comes into a high-leverage situation that's on the manager.

[brettac1]

One thing I have noticed about the Cubs -- is that their best pitcher, Marmol, is most often pitching in the highest leverage situations, which are oftentimes not the 9th inning or pre-defined closer's role. I don't know if Pinella has done this by design, or if it is dumb luck, it has worked for them though.

 

Yeah, that is a "new age" bullpen management style - you'll just never hit is because the image that Piniella is supposed to fit is that of the old school manager. The Tigers and Leyland pretty much did the same last year with Zumaya, who is great, and then closed the games with Jones, who is pretty much awful.

 

I think Melvin put together a really solid bullpen on paper, but you can't always project how a guy is going to perform over 60 IP. There were a lot of solid pitchers there, and it was going pretty well until Villanueva burnt out (which isn't on the GM, or really anyone). Sometimes everything just goes wrong, really the same thing happened to the pen last year at times, too.

[Diskono]

paul253 wrote:

If only he gave Yost 5 other pitchers that knew how to pitch with a lead...

 

So do the other pitchers just forget how to pitch when the Brewers are in the lead? They seemed to do just fine in the 3 games against Pittsburgh.

[Bucky Rules]

At one time our pitching staff had 13 players. Every BP should have a mop-up guy. Spurling was fine in that role, if your mop-up guy comes into a high-leverage situation that's on the manager.

When the Brewers are in a high leverage situation every night, and the starters cause the bp to work 4 innings far too often, it's tough to avoid that. This bullpen would've been a lot better, if the starters would've been as good as we hoped. If you want to blame that on the defense, fine -- I'm not all that clear on how reliable defensive metrics are. Either way... the bullpen has been over-used which leads to having to use a guy like Spurling in a high-leverage situation. I don't see how Yost could've changed that in a very meaningful way.

[Bucky Rules]

Yeah, that is a "new age" bullpen management style - you'll just never hit is because the image that Piniella is supposed to fit is that of the old school manager. The Tigers and Leyland pretty much did the same last year with Zumaya, who is great, and then closed the games with Jones, who is pretty much awful.

I'll be interested to see if Leyland and Piniella continue to do that after Jones and Dempster are gone, and Marmol and Zumaya become more experienced. I'd be willing to bet that Leyland and Piniella "got lucky" in the fact that it's easy to convince rookies to accept a set up role while a veteran (no matter how marginal that vet is) holds the closer role.