Suggestion: Pitch Sheets on 3 days rest (also: Cubs 4-man rotation)

[owbc]

Winning tonight has given me hope that the Brewers still have a chance this year, but I know that we only have a real chance if our pitching can start giving us a chance to win games. Since Ben Sheets is by far our best starter when he is healthy, and he definitely appears to be at 100%, why not start him on 3 days rest for the remainder of the season. I doubt being overworked is an issue, and we can give him an 80 or 90 pitch limit, but at least he will probably keep us in more games that way. I see it as our only chance unless our other starters drastically improve.

 

Whenever Sheets has had 3 days rest, he should pitch the next day, no matter who is scheduled. Anyone agree or am I crazy?

 

(added tag --1992)

(expanded thread title --1992)

[AdvantageSchneider]

You are crazy. Pitchers on 3 days rest are very ineffective. Plus he's coming off an injury. Keep him on regular rest.

[owbc]

From what I've read, pitching on 3 days rest does not decrease performance, it is consistent high pitch counts that wear out pitchers. Plus, Sheets hasn't pitched in a month, even though his arm has been perfectly healthy. He would have been back sooner if it wasn't for the blister.

[jlau20]

The only way I would want him pitching on three days rest for the entire rest of the season is if he was our closer.

 

I doubt that'll happen. I don't think it's worth it to do something like that, especially considering we don't need to even put him in a position where something bad could occur. We just got him back, I'm plenty happy with seeing him every fifth day.

[1992casey]

There is a well thought out mindset that pitching on three days rest is probably fine, and that high pitch counts per appearance and pitching in stressful situations is what's much harder on an arm. Having said all that, I don't want to find that out with Ben as my guinea pig. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[recte44]

Funny, I had that same thought during the game tonight. Go with Sheets, Bush, and the two hot hands down the stretch. Both Sheets and Bush are more than capable of doing this.

[LouisEly]

Hey, it wasn't that long ago that four man rotations were the norm. If they can limit pitch counts to 80-90 (six innings?), I think it will be fine.

[DHonks]

Benny seemed to throw very few curves tonight. Was it the finger, or a plan to attack the Cubs with the fastball? His velocity and command were great. But we need him in October. Heck, he was on an 85 pitch pitch count tonight, and you want to suddenly push him?

[jjfanec]

Suppan has pitched relatively well lately. With him pitching better, Bush and Sheets the top three are shoring up. Gallardo needs to be more consistent in his next (and possibly last) few starts. Other than that Parra only has a couple more games, then Carlos will come back up and pitch. The wild card will be what happens when Gallardo and Parra are both used up. Then i could see a 4 man rotation with Sheets, Bush, Suppan and Carlos

[rluzinski]

Studies have shown that starting pitchers perform worse with 3 days of rest. It's one thing to do it once or twice in the playoffs. For a month? With normal rest, Sheets will get 6 starts in the remaining 30 starts. 4 days rest would get 1 extra start. Not worth it, IMO.

[iluvlamp]

Can't Yost pitch? Then we could settle it once and for all!

[HebrewHammer]

Just having Sheets back should be good enough. The team is going to get its mojo back.

[rluzinski]

The idea that pitching is more important than offense during a playoff run and in the playoffs has got me pretty confused anyway. A really bad offense is just as bad as a really bad pitching staff. Average for both is about 4.5 runs per game. An offense that scores 2 runs less than average is just as bad as a pitching staff/defense that gives up 2 runs over average. A team will be expected to win the same amount of games in either case. Conversely, a very good offense is gong to win as many games as a very good pitching staff as well. They are equally as important, by definition of how a team can win a game!

 

It makes no sense the way I understand it, yet it hasn't stopped guys like Haudricourt to say it over and over again. Someone enlighten me if I'm missing something.

[twobrewers]

Benny seemed to throw very few curves tonight. Was it the finger, or a plan to attack the Cubs with the fastball?

Anyone else catch that in his last inning he was biting at his blister at least 3 times?

 

I know he always chews his nails, but he was very clearly nibbling on the front side of his right middle finger. He pitched great - but I wonder if something started to pop back up again.

 

And yes, pitching on 3 days rest is pretty crazy. You admitted yourself that would require them to be limited to around 85 pitches or so. Our bullpen is horrible right now - I don't want to give them more work. I'll take 8 innings every 5 days rather than 6 innings ever 3 days.

[sheethead]

Don't forget Ned is going to throw Cappy back in the rotation when its needed. I doubt management would do anything as radical as use a 4 man rotation for a month.

[biedergb]

Let him get his usual 4 days rest, and if we need it the last week of the season, throw him on three days rest. Right now just having him there is good enough. With his inactivity (in terms of real game action), don't give him a chance to get another set-back (soreness, blister, etc).

 

The 4 man rotation was a different age. Pitchers are used differently (pitch counts, specialized bullpens) and hitters (not to mention strike zones) are much different.

 

Final point -- hasn't the bullpen been part of the big issue here? So putting Ben on 3 days rest, but limiting his pitch count, basically means we're asking 5-6 innings from him and then 3-4 innings from teh bullpen. Hasn't that been part of the recent problems? Let him go 6-8 innings on usual rest, and give a chance of a win more often than not.

[1992casey]

Five articles by Rany Jazayerli on Baseball Prospectus:

• A Brief History of Pitcher Usage
• How We Measure Pitcher Usage
  

• The Five-Man Rotation
• The Five-Man Rotation, Part 2
• The Five-Man Rotation, Part 3

[Warriors76]

If we pitch Sheets on 3 days rest, he might get hurt, and then we might fall out of first place. Then, the Brewers might be seen as a failing franchise that loses every year. It would be crazy.

[Fatter than Joey]

It makes no sense the way I understand it, yet it hasn't stopped guys like Haudricourt to say it over and over again. Someone enlighten me if I'm missing something.

 

I think people say things like this in regard to absolutely dominating pitchers like Randy Johnson back in the day. Randy Johnson on 3 days rest is better than any other pitcher in MLB (again speaking to 1997)

 

I think Ben Sheets on 3 days rest is better than running Cappy/Villy/Vargas out there. I think that is the "wisdom" in that statement.

[Fike85]

In a weird way I hope that Yost decides to Dusty Baker Ben Sheets for the rest of the season. Is that a good idea? Probably not, but desperate times call for desperate measures. (Though with Weeks, Fielder, Braun, Hardy, Hart, Sheets, Suppan, and Hall coming back next year, I would not call these desperate ...After all these are not the '91 Pirates)

I would like to see a three-man rotation of Sheets, Bush, Suppan, and Villanueva/Gallardo/Parra for the rest of the season. I think it's our only hope...

[brewcrewnation]

Ned just said Ben has been moved up to pitch tuesday in Houston instead of Wednesday, that also means he will pitch sunday in atlanta.

[jlau20]

I like that. Only threw 50 pitches, which while still a decent amount, should be few enough to have him in good shape Tuesday. This is pretty much the only scenario in which I think it's ok Ben goes on three days.

[endaround]

Bad idea. Pitchers just don't respond well on three days rest and starting. They almost always stink.

[pitchleague]

well, he only threw 3 innings and 50 pitches, so maybe he'll be alright. I agree that it is definitely risky but maybe we need to take that chance.

[dlk9s]

I like that. Only threw 50 pitches, which while still a decent amount, should be few enough to have him in good shape Tuesday. This is pretty much the only scenario in which I think it's ok Ben goes on three days.

I agree. When I first heard he's going on 3 days rest I thought it was a terrible idea. But then I remembered he didn't throw many pitches Friday. I'm sure he told Yost he'll be perfectly fine to go.

My brother was arguing Friday (before the game) that Yost should throw Sheets AND Gallardo on 3 days rest the rest of the way because they have been our two best pitchers. I told him that would be stupid, yet he refused to see what I was trying to tell him. He says to just have them pitch fewer innings/pitches than normal. My argument was that a) their bodies (especially Gallardo's) are not used to going on short rest, so they won't be as effective, even if they are only asked to go 5 innings/75 pitches, and b) I'd rather have them go 6-7 innings on regular rest to avoid using the sub-par middle of the bullpen.

If Yost wants to throw them on 3 days rest during the final week of the season, fine, as long as the guys feel good about it. But for 3 weeks? No. Besides, Suppan and Villy have done well lately and while Bush has struggled in his last couple starts, he has been our most consistent non-injured guy for a while now. I actually feel pretty good about our starters at the moment. I just hope our hitting finds some consistency and our bullpen holds strong.