What happened to Parra?

[RU Rah Rah]

Apologies if this has been addressed elsewhere, or if he was DL'd or something and I just completely missed it (which always a distinct possibility), but what has been the story with Parra lately? He has pitched exactly 5 2/3 innings since August 5, and not at all since August 14.

 

Is this just a matter of Ned not trying to wear out a young arm? Or has he just fallen off the map somehow?

[BillScottCanRake]

Parra hasn't reached his innings limit just yet, as he's only gone 127 innings between Huntsville, Nashville and Milwaukee. His limit for the year is about 150, so he should have 20-25 innings left.

 

I can't say why he hasn't pitched lately.

[brewcrewkid14]

I'm guessing they are just saving him for September. With his arm history, I'm guessing they want to be especially careful with him, whereas Yo will most likely end up a little above his set "limit". Just speculation though.

[Ennder]

He only seems to pitch when the rest of the bullpen is burned out and lately our bullpen has been pretty rested with all the days off.

[jaybird2001wi]

Seeing as how Cappy just got demoted to the bullpen since they can deal with a four-man rotation for the time being, I can understand why Parra hasn't been pitching as often.

My guess is that since Cappy is in the bullpen, Parra will get more cushion because Cappy can do mopup work now.

[dadofandrew]

When the rotation pitches well, the 12th man is going to be used sparingly. He warmed up Wednesday night late.

[1992casey]

Parra hasn't reached his innings limit just yet, as he's only gone 127 innings between Huntsville, Nashville and Milwaukee. His limit for the year is about 150, so he should have 20-25 innings left. ...

I'm guessing they are just saving him for September. ...

When the rotation pitches well' date=' the 12th man is going to be used sparingly. He warmed up Wednesday night late.[/quote']

In other words, things are working out pretty well. Manny's available if he's needed, but he hasn't really been needed recently.

 

[And That]

Manny will eat the rest of his 25 innings at some point, and then not be available for the playoffs. Actually, if he doesn't eat his 25 innings, I'll wonder if he'll be over-rested for the playoffs. Maybe if they switch him to being a backup LOOGY with Capuano in the pen and Gallardo on a seemingly long rope in terms of IP?

[Patrick425]

Ok, I have been a life long baseball fan. Was at the WS in 82, season tick holder since 93, spring training the last 5 years...so, I feel stupid asking this. I have seen this mentioned before on the site, but I have to ask now. What is this inning limit stuff? Is this something new? I have never heard of it until this year and all the discussions about it on this site. Sorry about my ignorance.http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/embarassed.gif

[brewcrewfan08]

You want to limit a young pitchers innings, there has been many cases, like Wood and Prior, who were overworked at a young age, that it can effect the outcome of the career. So they try to gradually get them pitching more and more innings each year so they become more used to pitched a large amount.

[JohnBriggs12]

Patrick425, you're not stupid. This "innings limit" stuff is stupid. It's the latest fad that baseball people have come up with to prevent arm injuries (which history has proven can strike no matter what you try to do to prevent them), This strategy is just don't pitch. Isn't that clever?

 

Forget that back in the day a guy like Bert Blyleven threw 275 innings as a 20 year old, then never had a serious arm problem the rest of his career.

[BrewCrewForever]

I would have liked to seen Parra pitch last night instead of Capuano.

[olliegjw]

Patrick425, you're not stupid. This "innings limit" stuff is stupid. It's the latest fad that baseball people have come up with to prevent arm injuries (which history has proven can strike no matter what you try to do to prevent them), This strategy is just don't pitch. Isn't that clever?

 

Forget that back in the day a guy like Bert Blyleven threw 275 innings as a 20 year old, then never had a serious arm problem the rest of his career.

It's not the number of innings that is the problem. It's the increase in innings from one year to the next. They try and limit it to about a 25-30 inning increase per year. Who cares how many innings Blyleven threw as a 20 year old. That was a different era. He may have thrown 250 innings the year before which would still meet the "limit".

[lukevan]

Gallardo thread.

 

This is the thread about limiting Gallardo's innings and why GMs and managers would do this.

[Bruce Ciskie]

It's a lot easier than teaching proper throwing mechanics to young pitchers. Just limit their innings so they don't have as much of a chance at getting hurt. http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif

[Team Canada]

Patrick425, you're not stupid. This "innings limit" stuff is stupid. It's the latest fad that baseball people have come up with to prevent arm injuries (which history has proven can strike no matter what you try to do to prevent them), This strategy is just don't pitch. Isn't that clever?

 

Forget that back in the day a guy like Bert Blyleven threw 275 innings as a 20 year old, then never had a serious arm problem the rest of his career.

 

I'm absolutely shocked that you're able to find examples of people that were okay. I thought it was a law of nature that arm problems resulted 100% of the time.

 

 

Back in my day, pitchers would throw 5 days a week and hit homers on their off days! And they liked it!

 

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/bcf3527142a59b7dd5956373445213b8b26ea5e.jpg

 

[lukevan]

We might as well have started Jeffress from day one and thrown him 200+ IP. There's no reason to build up his stamina.

[Ennder]

Forget that back in the day a guy like Bert Blyleven threw 275 innings as a 20 year old, then never had a serious arm problem the rest of his career.

 

275 IP back then is like 200 IP now though, hitters go deeper into counts and pitchers cannot afford to just pitch to contact because hitters are just better in general. Gallardo/Parra could very well go 200 IP and be just fine but studies have shown a strong correlation between large jumps in IP and injuries so why on earth would we take the chance. It would just be foolish to ignore the facts. For every Blyleven there is an Eldred who burned out his arm and was never the same because of his big jump in usage.

[Thurston Fluff]

Patrick425, you're not stupid. This "innings limit" stuff is stupid. It's the latest fad that baseball people have come up with to prevent arm injuries (which history has proven can strike no matter what you try to do to prevent them), This strategy is just don't pitch. Isn't that clever?

 

Forget that back in the day a guy like Bert Blyleven threw 275 innings as a 20 year old, then never had a serious arm problem the rest of his career.

 

If you have to go back to 1971 for an example that should be reason enough to accept the statistical studies on this subject. The innings limit isn't some sort of pop wisdom that sort of caught on. It's based on a series of studies done on the subject. Of course injuries can come up any time but to use that as a reason not to take prudent measures to safeguard agianst predictable injuries is not a wise way to run an organization. Especially if one would like to continue running the organization.

[1992casey]

Patrick425, there's some good background information in this thread:

 

Gallardo and limiting his innings

[colbyjack]

Pitch counts aren't really a new thing, as teams have been managing their young pitchers more and more conservatively for years now. There have even been studies about how pitchers fare at the big league level from start to start when they are allowed to throw more than 120 pitches (or a figure around there) in a game. Livan Hernandez is usually the exception to this, and while I don't remember where I saw the study, I do remember that most pitchers seems to have rather poor outings the next time out if they went deep the game before.

 

And of course there is always an example like Blyleven. I always seem to hear from someone talking about how Tom Seaver threw 250 innings at the age of 22 and how he didn't have a single year in which he didn't throw under 200 innings until he was 35 years old.

 

But for every Seaver and Blyleven you have examples like Dwight Gooden and Fernando Valenzuela, extremely talented young pitchers that burnt out early in their careers. Many attribute them burning out so fast due to their extremely heavy workloads in their early 20s (actually both began their big-league careers at the age of 19).

 

I know a lot of old-school baseball fans, and some involved with the game itself, bring up points like JohnBriggs', but when you look at every single level of baseball these days, almost every single coach across the nation is doing something aggressively and pro-actively to make sure they are taking care of their pitchers arms.

[Thurston Fluff]

Here's a link that not only has some info on innings limits but also links other stories on the subject.

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-year-after-effect/

 

One is pro one is con so it's balanced.

[RU Rah Rah]

With the way the rotation is going, I wonder if we're due to see one or more starts-by-committee after Sept. 1.

[Big Reed]

I would have to ask the unpopular question. Did the brewers blow out Nuege's arm because of over use? Did the brewers ruin Gold's career because of over use? Did the brewers overuse Peterson, Jones and Rogers? Did the Brewers overuse Sheets? or did their arms breakdown because of other mechanical reasons? and while I named a bunch of brewers, I could have said the exact same thing for many other teams. The brewers don't have any more pitchers with arm problems than any other team. they are just highlighted more because the brewers are more dependent on their home grown talent than other teams are.

 

I'm more of the oppinion that more pitchers burn their arms out trying to throw 95+ mph fastballs than from being overused. When I look at pitchers today that have had long careers verses those whose careers were shortened, I see pitchers like Maddux, Glavine, Clemins and Moyer who have stopped trying to throw the ball and started learning how to pitch. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of high fastball pitchers like Prior and Wood flame out. Nobody will ever accuse Maddux of throwing high heat. Steve Carlton was known for his curveball as were Ryan, Johnson and Blyleven. it's interesting that all 4 pitched successfully over the age of 40. On the other hand, the careers of Gibson and Palmer were both cut short. Was it a coincidence? how fast does Clemins throw today? 92? 89?

 

maybe what the brewers need is not to limit a pitcher's amount of innings, but rather the velocity on his pitches. I realize fans love to see a pitcher register 99+ on the pitching gun. But perhaps that's what is ultimately ruining a pitcher's career. perhaps a lot of these pitchers throwing 95+ mph pitches do not have a body that was built to do so.

 

I haven't done any research on this subject. I do know guys like Kaat, Ryan, Carlton, Randy Johnson, Seaver, and Blyleven did not continue to throw heat as they got older. it was part of their arsenal, but not their main weapon.

 

I don't know enough about Pedro Martinez to speculate if his arm breaks down because he tries to throw high heat, or if it's mechanics or if it was from overuse earlier in his career. but he always seems to break down.

 

Sowers was supposed to be a great college pitcher not really known for the velocity on his fastball. To contradict my thoughts. he's had plenty of injuries after he left college. Those problems cannot be attributed to either over use by the Indians or from throwing high velocity pitches.

 

so for every theory, there will always be exceptions. However, I am led to believe the primary reason so many young pitchers fail has more to do with how they pitch rather than how much they pitch.

[1992casey]

I think a huge contributing factor toward Neugebauer's demise was that the Brewers let him pitch when he was less than 100% healthy.