Estrada vs. Backup, a cERA comparison

[Brian the Automator]

2007

Estrada: 4.58

Miller: 4.26

 

2006

Estrada: 4.58

Snyder: 4.53

 

2005

Estrada: 3.92

McCann: 4.03

 

2004

Estrada: 3.77

E. Perez: 3.68

 

I went into this research thinking there was going to be more of a significant dropoff in cERA between Johnny Estrada and his backup. Given that a segment of fans seem to think Johnny is a somewhat mediocre game caller (and I don't necessarily disagree from my vantage point) and that his arm is average or subpar, I would figure that he would be the kind of guy to have a rougher cERA than the competition.

 

This begs the question, is Johnny not as much of a defensive liability as many of us had initially thought? Or is it just that his backups are just not good defensive catchers either?

[fondybrewfan]

I never really thought Estrada was the problem. I have always thought that the defense has been the main problem for our pitching staff. Pretty much every single defender has below average range and some of our guys cant even make the routine plays. The only grip I have about Estrada is his throwing ability and his offensive issues.

[Fatter than Joey]

I don't know if this is a good measure. A lot of times catchers will catch specific pitchers. Even this year, Estrada caught most of the games in April when Cappy and Suppan were doing better. McCann and Snyder were young catchers at the time they were backups to Estrada.

 

I can tell by Estrada's techniques he is a very sloppy catcher. He may call a good game -- I don't pretend to know that -- but I think the thing in question is more along the lines of "to what degree do Estrada's deficiencies hurt us."

 

I think Estrada's deficiencies at this point are living in the shadows of our pitching WOAHs that are not SOLVDD

[Brian the Automator]

Usually the crappy catchers are the "personal" catchers of the good pitchers, so I'm not on board with the argument about it's who he's caught. 4 years worth of numbers have him hovering around the other catcher's cERA.

[Fatter than Joey]

Well -- for example -- Miller seems to be catching Suppan now -- It's not fair to compare cERAs unless the catchers are catching a similar ratio of pitchers.

[JJHardy7]

What sloppy techniques are you referring to? Sloppy fielding? If that's it, I guess I would call it lack of focus/concentration. I can see how you could call it sloppy if that's what you are referring to.

[Fatter than Joey]

What sloppy techniques are you referring to?

 

Going to his knees for example -- he rarely moves his body to get in front of the ball -- he tries to backhand everything. I'd call it sloppy/lazy.

 

If you were going to show a kid how to catch -- you wouldn't show them tapes of Estrada.

[Brian the Automator]

Well -- for example -- Miller seems to be catching Suppan now -- It's not fair to compare cERAs unless the catchers are catching a similar ratio of pitchers.

Miller has had the bulk of Suppans start, but Estrada had Soup's last start. If you look at Miller's game log, he's caught every starter on the staff, recently.

 

[jason21nl]

What sloppy techniques are you referring to?

 

Going to his knees for example -- he rarely moves his body to get in front of the ball -- he tries to backhand everything. I'd call it sloppy/lazy.

 

If you were going to show a kid how to catch -- you wouldn't show them tapes of Estrada.

 

this is one of my main complaints about estrada. I call him lazy because he never goes down or cups his body to block balls in the dirt. He always trys to short hop or back hand the ball. I have no idea if he calls a good game or not, but he can't block balls in the dirt, and he can't throw.

[Fatter than Joey]

Miller has had the bulk of Suppans start, but Estrada had Soup's last start. If you look at Miller's game log, he's caught every starter on the staff, recently.

 

I'd be more interested to compare their cERAs after the AS break -- can you do that?

[Brian the Automator]

I'd be more interested to compare their cERAs after the AS break -- can you do that?

Hey, I am employed, you know.

 

[Fatter than Joey]

Get an intern on it then

[bjkrautk]

What sloppy techniques are you referring to?

 

Going to his knees for example -- he rarely moves his body to get in front of the ball -- he tries to backhand everything. I'd call it sloppy/lazy.

 

If you were going to show a kid how to catch -- you wouldn't show them tapes of Estrada.

this is one of my main complaints about estrada. I call him lazy because he never goes down or cups his body to block balls in the dirt. He always trys to short hop or back hand the ball. I have no idea if he calls a good game or not, but he can't block balls in the dirt, and he can't throw.

The ball that kicked off his glove (around the 6th inning) yesterday (8/15) is a perfect example of this. His body never moved to try and catch a ball well off the plate....he just stuck his glove arm out there, and the ball went all the way to the backstop as a result allowing the baseruners to advance to 2nd and 3rd (when the hitter was trying to bunt).

 

He's also not a good 'catch and throw' defender behind the dish....the running game isn't as big a part of baseball as it used to be, and he's been better in other years, but his CS% (18.3%) this year is Dave Nilsson -bad. (Is Henry Blanco going to be a free agent in the off season? http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/laugh.gif) The only evidence I have on his ability to call a game is anecdotal (you don't hear pitchers / announcers crediting JE's catching as often as they have Miller and Bad Chad in other years, AFAIK).

 

Admittedly, some of his deficiencies may stem from his playing hurt, as he is laboring noticably along the basepaths. It can't be too easy to make quick lateral movements to block a ball, or jump up for a snap throw when your legs are bothering you.

[dadofandrew]

The point on Suppan means a lot, actually, as it is unfair to compare whenever a catcher is used as a personal catcher...which seems to have gone away of late anyway. cERA is tough, because it is rare two catchers play anywhere near equally...120 vs 40 can easily be a fluke.

[Brian the Automator]

The point on Suppan means a lot, actually, as it is unfair to compare whenever a catcher is used as a personal catcher...which seems to have gone away of late anyway. cERA is tough, because it is rare two catchers play anywhere near equally...120 vs 40 can easily be a fluke.

That's why I threw 4 years worth of data out there. 1 year a fluke? Absolutely. 4? Possible, but less so. I wasn't trying to point the reader to the conclusion that Estrada was a good defensive catcher, just that he wasn't as horrible as I initially had thought, looking at the data.

 

[dadofandrew]

Estrada calls a fine game. His other skills are below average, but he can actually hit a bit, unlike most C's.

[brewcrewkid14]

I could do without Estrada. Now I see why he's been with like four different teams in the past five years. I can't stand the guy.

 

I would rather have a guy that has a cannon and can get down to his knees and block the ball than someone who hits .282 with a .300 on base percentage and is lazy with a noodle for an arm.

 

I'd even go as far as to say that I'd take Blanco over Estrada any day. But maybe not. http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif

[DHonks]

Estrada was known as a defense-first catcher when he was traded from the Phillies to the Braves. He's solid all around...he can hit, shows a bit of power, blocks balls well, and calls a decent game. The only flaws are throwing (aided by how abyssmal our pitchers are at holding runners) and BB/OBP.

[rluzinski]

If backup catchers are like other backup players, they would probably have above average defense. We are talking about 2 things though, a catcher's defense and a catcher's ability to call a game. I don't think even Estrada could hurt a pitcher's ERA much with pass balls and SBs, though. I'd have to look at his rates at both compared to an average catcher.

[RightFieldCoder]

I don't blame Estrada for a bad arm. Our pitchers, outside of Cappy, seem to have no ability to hold runners on. The percentages of base stealers thrown out aren't radically different to say one of our catchers has a cannon and the other a noodle.

 

Also, I always wondered about catchers calling a good game. These days, don't the catcher and pitcher get together before the game and go over strategy against hitters? And when a catcher runs out to the mound with a reliever, how many times is he discussing with the pitcher what they want to throw. I don't think the catcher has as much imput into pitch selection as they used to or as people think.

[AJAY]

I could do without Estrada. Now I see why he's been with like four different teams in the past five years. I can't stand the guy.

I would rather have a guy that has a cannon and can get down to his knees and block the ball than someone who hits .282 with a .300 on base percentage and is lazy with a noodle for an arm.

I agree with all your points. I just hate how he always swings at the first pitch whenever there is a rally going. Everyone in the league knows that you don't have to throw him a strike because he will still swing at it.

His lack of speed on the basepaths is also starting to bother me the more I watch him. Even his power numbers are okay but nothing special.

It would be nice if he could at least excel at something.