Opinions wanted on dog questions.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I know it'd be just as easy to go and ask a vet these questions, but I want to hear what actual dog owners have to say, and this place is as good as any.

 

My dog (Black lab) is 11 years old. She's got a pretty bad set of hips (From what I've heard this is common with labs). She doesn't have a whole lot of trouble getting around, but even navigating the 2 steps to get in or out of the back door is a chore, and standing up, she more or less looks like an old man trying to get out of a recliner.

 

She's gotten to the point where she'll just piss in the house somewhat often rather than go outside. She's getting ornery (and I can't stress enough what a good tempered dog she's always been), and she's showing her teeth and growling at us when she's so much as startled slightly. She hasn't bitten anyone yet, but I strongly suspect that it's at least a good possibility to happen in the right circumstances.

 

She's just basically acting "old", and I've never had a dog this age.

 

I'm not against going to the vet of course, I'd just like to get some opinions from some experienced dog owners before I go sinking a load of money I can't afford into medical costs for a dog that probably doesn't have a really long time left to live.

 

 

(added tag --1992casey)

[dadofandrew]

Sounds like she's in quite a bit of pain. I would guess she's either going to need very expensive care or the end is very near.

[1992casey]

RoCo, I can relate to everything in your post except for the ornery temperament. I went through all the rest of it, however, before having my dog put down a couple of weeks ago. Casey was five weeks short of fifteen; your dog seems to be going through this at a somewhat more typical age for a dog that size. I recall a chart at one of the vets saying that these particular dogs are geriatric at age ten.

 

As far as the urination, chances might be that it's due to decreased kidney function. That isn't necessarily as horrific as it sounds. Test don't detect a deficiency until the animal is at about 35% of normal function. 10% function is what's necessary to survive. Still, when tests detect a decrease, adjustments are likely in order.

 

When my dog started having indoor urine accidents about two years ago, the vet put him on a prescription kidney diet, and things shaped up very nicely. His body just wasn't processing protein very well.

 

In addition to a kidney diet, you should avoid giving her much in the way of extra meat and potassium--and definitely avoid salt. Just to be safe, I'd make sure Casey went outside every time I thought urination was even crossing his mind--especially when someone came to the door. Other than that, we were back to a basically normal routine.

 

You might see some improvement with prescription pain medication. My dog was taking three drugs over his final four months. Metacam was expensive; the other two were in the ten cent a pill range and could be filled by the local pharmacist.

 

It's possible that your vet might also recommend Rimadyl; that's also a fairly pricey med. When I say pricey, I mean in the one to two dollar a day range for a dog of a lab's weight. (You won't get both Metacam and Rimadyl; they don't 'play well' together. I had to take Casey off Rimadyl for a week before starting Metacam. He was given something else to hold him over.)

 

Medication helped, and usually, if Casey had a bad day, he'd show improvement the next day. While this isn't applicable to you, the warm weather helped a ton. Ice was a real hazard.

 

Casey 'retired' from stairs about a year ago. Around Christmas, he could still do a couple of steps and could jump in the car with a bit of a boost. I'd say it was around March when I started seeing what you appear to be seeing.

 

One thing that really helped his quality of life was that it was very practical to adapt my house for him. He lived in the living room and bedroom. Rooms with hard (slippery) floors were blocked off. And luckily, the step from my driveway to the front door is about two inches high. In short, any adaptations you can make can only help.

 

You're going to definitely have to talk to the vet. Phone advice is free. S/he'll probably want you to take the dog in, and that makes sense. I'd guess that it's possible that temperament could improve if the animal is able to feel more comfortable.

 

Good luck with all this. I know exactly what you're experiencing. In addition to the dog being frustrated and you being frustrated, you're going to have to listen to people telling you what you should be doing. General advice is fine. Hearing 'you should be putting the dog to sleep' isn't. Others don't see the dog day in and day out; only people living in the household with the animal will know when the time comes for that.

[bork]

We went throug the exact same thing a year and a half ago. We put our German Shepard-lab mix down at 12 years old. The last year was pretty rough. Had a lot of trouble getting up and would fall sometimes while walking. The vet said one of the back legs had nerve damage and there wasn't much they could do. She also started having frequent accidents inside the house. We still haven't totally gotten rid of the smell in the family room carpet. We'll probably have to get it replaced. The final straw came when she started growling at my then 1 year old son. My son usually just wanted to pet the dog, but she wanted nothing to do with it.

It came to the point that we knew she was in so much pain that her life was miserable. Nothing made her happy anymore. We didn't want to spend a lot of money because we figured she was pretty old for a large dog and wouldn't live much longer anyway. It's difinitely a very tough decision, but we felt we made the right choice in our case. Good luck.

[brewcrew00]

I have also gone through the same thing, one thing the vet did recommend which we ended up using for a while was shark cartilage. Apparently it helps joints and I believe you can get at a lot of different pet stores. Before trying something like this however, I would 100% go to a vet first, never try anything without the doctor recommendation.

[1992casey]

One measure that you can opt for yourself is a Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplement. Every vet I've spoken to has heartily recommended this. In addition, many supplements also contain MSM; the vets I've spoken to have also been just fine with that.

 

This is something that can be given to a dog as a preemptive measure starting at a young age. One of Casey's vets started giving it to her three-year-old lab--just in case. She also noted that the human versions of these supplements were just fine and that the price goes up considerably as soon as there's a picture of the a dog on the package.

 

In Casey's final months, he did receive a Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplement meant for dogs (Dasuquin). There was something additional in the concoction that the vet wanted him to have.

 

These are the daily minimums the vet recommended for a 60 pound dog (Casey's size at the time of the recommendation; he had lost weight over his final year):

• Glucosamine: 560 mg
• Chondroitin: 420 mg
• MSM: 224 mg

It doesn't hurt to exceed those doses. Because the formulas available won't 'match up' exactly to what you need, you'll likely exceed the minimum in one or two of the ingredients. Just don't waste money on what you don't need.

 

One shark product out there is Dog Gone Pain. While I've read rave reviews, vets at two clinics recommended against it. Reasons:

• Small sample size 'tests' consisting of random anecdotal evidence (baseball statheads will appreciate this one http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif).
• Proprietary ingredients that the company won't reveal. It's hard to predict interaction with other drugs.
• The harvest process being inhumane to sharks.
  

As I alluded to, one thing I (thankfully) didn't have to deal with were significant personality changes that impacted Casey in a negative way. He was alert and enjoyed the things he was still able to enjoy until the end. Somewhere along the line he started fearing storms and stopped fearing guns and fireworks. That was definitely better the other way around.

 

EDIT: I forgot this: if you start up a Glucosamine supplement, it'll take a few weeks to kick in.

[burniebrewer]

RoCo, I had a yellow lab that went through the same type of stuff at about the same age as your dog. Our dog was taking human arthritis meds (the vet's suggestion) and they helped out somewhat, but it was still hard to get up from a laying position. He never indicated pain or got angry, but you could tell by his actions that things just weren't fun anymore. Once he was up and got moving he'd be fine, but then the next day would suck more because all the exercise stiffened him up.

 

We kept at it for another six months because he didn't seem to be in any real pain or discomfort, just sore. As the winter approached though, we knew it was time to make that fateful decision as navigating the ice and snow was going to be very difficult for bathroom time.

 

His heart was still in it, but not his hips, so we decided to put him down. It was the most heart wrenching decision we ever had to make--deciding on the fate of "someone" we loved. We gave him another month, spoiled him with love and Frosty Paws (he'd do anything for one of those) and then the day came. I cried like a baby and am slightly tearing up typing this, but the vet came to our house and administered the shot while he was in his favorite place: the grass in our backyard overlooking his woods where used to chase the deer.

 

My thoughts go out to you and your pup.

[Houlie24x]

I have a 10 year old yellow lab and we have been giving her glucosamine for a little over a month. She started getting arthritis in her elbow about 6+ months ago. The pain was noticeably better after about a month of giving her the glucosamine.

[danzig6767]

I'm having amazingly bad luck with my 5 month old puppy.First i wasted 300 dollars at the vet last month after it looked like my dog had really hurt his leg after it tangled in the leash while he was running,ended up only being a sprain.

 

The yesterday morning i was in bed around 10:30 and my daughter comes in holding Tyson saying he looks really wrong.He had thrown up twice outside first and now he's on my bed with a constant flow of thick drool coming out of his mouth.He tries to stand up on my bed and falls over right on top of me,just lays there drooling all over and looking like something is very wrong with him.He seems all disorientated and can't stand up,i'm getting very nervous and then i see his normally pink tongue/gums are now purple.Drool has started to just pour out of his mouth and his body is feeling nearly limp.

 

I can't wait anyone and to the vet it is,Tyson literally looked like he was about to die any minute and my kid is crying hysterically.I'm assuming he ate something he found on the floor that he shouldn't have,i had an important appointment for something else at one o'clock so my neighbor took my kid/puppy to the vet closest by that was open.The vet at this place didn't seem the brightest they told me,but took x-rays/blood samples/checked if anything was stuck in his throat.Was taking awhile and he was under anesthetic,so they got something to eat and came back.Vet calls me says x-rays show nothing except a stone in his intestines,but nothing to worry about and his bloodwork is all fine.Then he tells my kid/neighbor that they are closing,he'll give the dog a pain killer shot and they have to take him home because they are closing.I call the vet back as the dog is heading back home,he says he has no idea what was wrong and that i should just moniter Tyson after he wakes up,take him to the 24 hour place if he doesn't seem better.Great stuff for 575 dollars,no answers.http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/mad.gif

 

Tyson gets home and he's either yelping in what seems like great pain or other times laying there on the couch as if he's nearly dead,his eyes followed no movement.After two hours of this,i can't take it anymore,i'm afraid he's either dying or in extreme pain.Find an urgent care place on the southwest side open,explain the whole story and bring the x-rays/paper work from the other vet.Within a few minutes the lady vet asks,did we see if Tyson got bit by a bee or bug.My daughter said there was a bee flying around when she took the dog out to pee.Instantly it made sense,he likely got stung and had an allergic reaction.Symptoms match an an allergic reaction on a dog and why he'd go from normal to looking nearly dead in an hour,given he only weighs 8 pounds.Why would this not even cross the first vets mind?

 

They kept Tyson over night on an IV among other drugs to flush his insides and he was very dehydrated.Plus,the yelping she suspected was basically from the dog being wasted on a dose of painkiller she thought was to high from the first vet.She thought Tyson my be hallucinating.This stay over ran me about 475,but we picked him up at 6pm today and he's home now.I'm so relieved that he's not dead,but annoyed a damn bee sting and one not so great vet cost me about 1000 dollars.I'm calling that clinic tommorrow and giving them a piece of my mind.

[1992casey]

Right about the time I got to the part about the vet saying it was closing time and the dog had to go home, I started thinking, "My god, the dog should have been hospitalized." No dog in that condition is OK.

[Fatter than Joey]

We have always have had labs in the FTJ house, even when I was a kid -- and some of them are just born to have bad hips and joints.

 

My dad's dog is going through a lot of the same things your dog is, and is probably about the same age -- My dad's dog messes in the house all the time, and has a hard time getting around -- probably should be put down, but my guess is my dad is waiting until he is at peace with the whole thing.

 

One thing I learned about labs, is that you have to keep the weight off of them, and not feed them table scraps -- we have a lab right now, and she is very skinny and healthy -- my dad's dog put on some weight, and that is now a big problem for her.

 

We had a scare with our dog -- looking like it would die everytime it walked -- turned out to be Lyme's disease and was easily treated.

[hawing]

Yeah, I'd say you have a beef with that first vet. I can't imagine anyone at our clinic telling us to just take a pet in obvious distress/trouble home because they're closing. But I'm glad to hear that Tyson appears to be on the mend.

[Thurston Fluff]

RoCo it sound like your dog is going through normal old age problems. He can probably be put on meds to help I don't know if Glucosamine will help hip displacia (sp?) though. Glucosamine helps joints by helping build/maintian cartilage. With hip displacia the hip joints aren't connected right and sometimes not at all. If your dog is grumpy he's in real pain. If the vet feels pains meds will help great. In the end though you may need to start to perpare yourself with the inevitable. Old dog's can regress quickly.

[1992casey]

I'm curious to see how things have gone for RoCo and if danzig6767 got any satisfaction from the vet who screwed up.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Not much to update. She has an easier time going out the front door and down the front step, so we've started letting her out that way. The only downside being that she thinks the neighbor's front yard is part of her run. (Downside for them, not me)

 

She's not growling at anyone or showing her teeth since I last posted, which is good, of course.

 

As far as some of the other comments and stuff.... She never gets table scraps or "human food", we've always been very careful about that, even since she was a puppy. I know too many people who give their dog scraps, and thats the type of dog that sits by the dinner table and expects stuff. I didn't want that kind of dog.

 

We switched her to an "older dog" dog food about 2 years ago, and she adapted really well to that.

 

I haven't started her on any meds yet (mostly just haven't had much time to get to a vet the last few weeks), and I'm really loathe to start her on anything as long as she seems to be doing ok these last few weeks.

 

I'll definately look into it before November, as I'm sure she's going to have a hard time with the cold weather.

[1992casey]

Before Casey was switched to the kidney diet, he was eating a senior food that was extremely high in protein. That might be something to look into.

 

As was mentioned above, a Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplement is something you can start on your own. If you get her going on that now, it should be helping before the cold weather kicks in.

 

The vet may be willing to prescribe something like Rimadyl without actually seeing the dog. I was using that with Casey on as 'as needed' basis before he went on a regular medication routine. Rimadyl and Metacam are both hard on the kidneys, though, when used regularly. But we were at a point where it was pretty apparent that his kidneys would outlast his hips.

 

I believe you can also try Tylenol. That also has kidney/liver affects, though. If you consider this, make sure you check to make sure Tylenol is the right thing. I always lose track of Tylenol vs. aspirin vs. Ibuprofen stuff.

[TooLiveBrew]

His heart was still in it, but not his hips, so we decided to put him down. It was the most heart wrenching decision we ever had to make--deciding on the fate of "someone" we loved. We gave him another month, spoiled him with love and Frosty Paws (he'd do anything for one of those) and then the day came. I cried like a baby and am slightly tearing up typing this, but the vet came to our house and administered the shot while he was in his favorite place: the grass in our backyard overlooking his woods where used to chase the deer.

 

My thoughts go out to you and your pup.

Holy cow, yea, I darn near cried like a baby reading this. Best wishes to your pooch and your family, RoCo

 

[hawing]

We gave him another month, spoiled him with love and Frosty Paws (he'd do anything for one of those) and then the day came.

 

That brings back memories, burniebrewer. Our cat was diagnosed with a poorly placed and aggressive tumor and lasted about three weeks after that. We stopped the diet food, I can tell you that, and on "the day" got a tranquilizer for her so we could get her in the carrier and off to the vet without too much yowling. I wrapped the tranquilizer in ice cream, thinking, what's it going to do, kill her?

 

That was a few weeks before Christmas, so the radio was playing nonstop Christmas songs. There are still a couple of songs I can't hear without remembering that day and tearing up.