Any doubt that something is wrong with CV?

[LouisEly]

And I don't mean Claudio Vargas. (Well, a strong case can be made for him too, but I'm referring to Carlos Villanueva.)

 

July - 6.75 ERA, 15 H and 10 BB in 17.1 IP.

August - 7 H, 2 BB in 2.2 IP (.467 BAA!), and a 13.50 ERA that should be worse had Linebrink not stranded runners of his that he left on 2nd and 3rd with none out.

 

Not to single out one person, because Villanueva, Cordero, Wise, Vargas, Hardy, Jenkins, and Weeks have all been horrible the last month or two. But something is not right with Carlos, because he can't get anybody out. They have to make a move with him - to the DL or to AAA. Seriously, Bray, McClung, or even Hackman can't be any worse than CV right now.

 

This is why I advocated trading for a veteran starter - the young guys don't have the experience and haven't built up their arms and will wear down at the end of the year.

[brewers255]

Heres a idea, are dumb manager overworked him.

 

2006: 53.2 IP

2007: 74.2 IP and we have 2 months left.

[thablingster]

I honestly think CV is tired. He's pitched a total of 74.2 innings while appearing in 49 games, and having warmed up for countless games he hasn't appeared in. The transition from starter to reliever I'd guess takes more of a toll on the arm because when you start you get 3-4 days off between starts, while as a reliever CV has gone back to back days a few times and every other day most of the season, with many of those outings early in the season being 1+ inning stints. I'd guess he's got a bit of "dead arm" going, which with some rest probably will be fine, but who's to say they'll actually give him the rest this season unless he shuts himself down.

[Mr QL]

Yup, overworked. Same with Cordero.

[logan82]

Ummm, I not disagreeing with you that he is overworked, but you might want to look at his minor league stats from last year also. I highly doubt he only pitched 53 innings last year. I believe he was up around 180 innings last year.

[bklynbrewcrew]

The guy either pitches or at the very least is warming up in the bullpen each and every night. Yost has completely ruined him and we all have to hope that his future hasnt been severely jeopardized. Put him on the DL now and bring him back in September. Pitching him at this point is both bad for the team and Villanuevas future.

[Ennder]

Its funny that when Yost doesn't use a guy who has pitched a lot he gets yelled at for not trying to win games and when he does pitch them a lot he's ruining them. You really can't have it both ways. I agree he's tired I just think its more the rotations fault than the managers. When your starters collectively struggle to get out of the 6th inning you are going to have problems.

 

Also Jenkins has a .854 OPS with a .383 OBP since the all star break, probably don't want to include him in a list of struggling players.

[fondybrewfan]

Cordero has not been overworked, for the most part he is going into games in save opportunities. Thats what closers do, if it is a close game they go in, any other manager would have used Cordero the exact same way. As far as Villy, he has pitched a lot more innings than this in previous years in the minors but he hasnt pitched as many times and I dont know how that effects a pitcher. With starting you really only throw once between a start but with releiving you are constantly throwing so I dont know what to make of it

[Thurston Fluff]

I suppose Ned should have just let inferior pitchers loose games for us earlier in the year. That would have made everyone happy. Look we're two games below .500 but we have a fresh pitcher whos'e hardly been used. Woohoo he'll be ready for a playoff run now...too bad we aren't in one. This happens to a lot of relievers in august. Some get over it and figure out how to get outs when they aren't 100% some fail. If they fail it's up to DM to find others who will succeed. If we are going to blame anyone for how poorly the pen is performing it should be the starters. Either that or the pitching coach who doesn't seem to get any flack for how poorly his charges are pitching this year.

[brewcrew00]

Heres a idea, are dumb manager overworked him.

 

How about our dumb manager, that's kind of ironic, don't you think?

 

 

 

P.S. I don't think Ned is dumb or the problem.

[biedergb]

Maybe not so much overworked, but the fact that he has pitched a lot more, and teams now have a book on him. I would guess like a lot of guys who come up, players don't know what to expect, but now that he has been a key cog in the bullpen, I'm sure most teams have a pretty good scouting report on him. So add in a lot of apperances (maybe not a ton of innings), and it's probably natural for him to get hit. Now the test will be if Carlos can adjust/adapt.

[jason21nl]

CV is spent. There is no way around that. The other day his fastball was a good 5mph slower than it usually is. He is up and down up and down in the pen. In blowouts he is used, in close games he is used. Dude needs to have a week off. Now thats both the starting pitchers and Neds fault. The starting pitchers need to get past the 6th. They are killing the team right now. and Ned, just because his arm is still hanging on doesn't mean he has to be the first out of the pen.

[Thurston Fluff]

There are over 50 relievers this year that have as many or more appearances than CV. He does have a lot of innings but that should be expected from a middle reliever who was a starter. If the arguement is he's had too many innings he's not even close to what he was at last year. The arguement has been he's used to often. If that's the case then a lot of pitchers are abused by a lot of managers. I suspect he's used like all middle relivers are. If htat is his role on the team then he better be able to fill that role. If not it might be time to find someone who can. I have to wonder if some of his problem isn't that the league has finally seen his stuff enough and he needs to make some adjustments. He really only has had about a year in the league now and he came from out of nowhere. He is a good pitcher IMO but his stuff isn't overpowering and he relies on location and his best pitch is his changeup. Not the type of guy who can blow people away even if they know whats coming.

I've seen a couple people talk about DL'ing him. If he isn't injured he isn't eligible. While DM could make up an injury there are reasons why that isn't done. CV would have to agree with it and that doesn't help his arbitration in the future. Nor is abusing the current system something GM's want to do often since that will inevitably lead to a change in the system. Look what the NFL did when they found abuses with the IR.

[Fear The Chorizo]

It's a real testament to the lackluster starting rotation's propensity to stink when your entire bullpen is totally gassed, even though at many times the Brewers have been carrying 12 and 13-man staffs.

[Brian the Automator]

Personally, I'd option Villy to AAA for 10 days and just not play him. 15 days is too long of a break, but 10 isn't too bad. And hey, if another pitcher would happen to go on the DL during that timespan, he could just come up early, say, 5-7 days rest.

 

Is Villy overworked? Absolutely. He has the most relief innings pitched of anyone in major league baseball.

[Thurston Fluff]

Villy has a lot of inning but he also had a start in there. He isn't close to the inning he's previously logged and he's about where a lot of relievers are in appearances. Granted his innings combined with appearances probalby have an effect. I don't think it will have negative effect on his long term health but it porbably does effect his abiltiy to get anyone out. I'd rather they used him like they needed to win games. What's the point of fresh relievers in August if the team is buried by then? I like Brian's idea of a break in AAA. They could get someone to do at least as well as CV is now for a short period of time.

[Brian the Automator]

Villy has a lot of inning but he also had a start in there. He isn't close to the inning he's previously logged and he's about where a lot of relievers are in appearances. Granted his innings combined with appearances probalby have an effect. I don't think it will have negative effect on his long term health but it porbably does effect his abiltiy to get anyone out. I'd rather they used him like they needed to win games. What's the point of fresh relievers in August if the team is buried by then? I like Brian's idea of a break in AAA. They could get someone to do at least as well as CV is now for a short period of time.

I wasn't even counting his start... that's what's extra distressing.

 

[Ennder]

The good news is we are off 2 of the next 5 days. Then we play 9 games of which 6 are at home and then we again have 2 of the next 5 days off. That alone should hopefully let these guys recover a little bit.

[don1481]

Villy has a lot of inning but he also had a start in there. He isn't close to the inning he's previously logged and he's about where a lot of relievers are in appearances. Granted his innings combined with appearances probalby have an effect. I don't think it will have negative effect on his long term health but it porbably does effect his abiltiy to get anyone out. I'd rather they used him like they needed to win games. What's the point of fresh relievers in August if the team is buried by then? I like Brian's idea of a break in AAA. They could get someone to do at least as well as CV is now for a short period of time.

 

I'll go on the record with saying that Villy definitely is overworked... was it just me or were the gun readings in COL for Villy topping out at 85-86 rather than closer to 90...?

 

I don't like how many appearances Villy - and the rest of the pen - have had this year. Having a rotation of pitchers that, for the most part, cannot get into the 7th inning on a somewhat consistent basis is the true root cause of the recent spate of ineffectiveness from the pen. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot the Brewers can do right now to improve the situation, short of hopping into a time machine, "borrowing" David Wells from a few years ago, and "claiming" him off of waivers (so the Wells from the past is pitching). The rotation is what it is, at least until when Sheets gets back - and even then, the only swap-out will likely be Sheets-for-Gallardo.

 

Ned probably has a D8 (borrowed from someone's D&D set) in the dugout and whenever he wants to warm up a reliever, he rolls it... and warms up the reliever that corresponds to the number. No wonder why Carlos is so tired - it's a weighted die!

 

Here's to the countdown to Sept 1 - when the Brewers can call up a bunch of "fresher" relievers... and give Ned a die with more sides.

[Fatter than Joey]

I am pretty sure that Ned uses a more sophisticated technology than D&D dice to make bullpen decisions.

 

Probably something like this.

 

http://ths78reunion.com/chicktactoeanim.gif

[don1481]

You're right, FTJ. D&D dice just don't quite help Ned - especially not with his gamblin', "gut feelin'" mindset. Tic-Tac-Toe requires too much "strategizin'" for Ned.

 

I was thinking something more like

 

http://www.mwce.co.uk/images/roulette-wheel.jpg

 

 

Ned can get his "gut feelin'" AND his "gamblin'" all taken care of with each call to the pen!

 

I'm still concerned, though, if the 2 off-days in the next few days will help the pen at all, especially given the starters' continued inability to go somewhat deep into games.

[Diskono]

Its funny that when Yost doesn't use a guy who has pitched a lot he gets yelled at for not trying to win games and when he does pitch them a lot he's ruining them. You really can't have it both ways. I agree he's tired I just think its more the rotations fault than the managers. When your starters collectively struggle to get out of the 6th inning you are going to have problems.

 

Generally, I don't have a problem with bringing in a crappy reliever at the beginning of an inning...its just situations like last Tuesday with 2 runners on, 2 runs in and no outs where I think he should go with the better pitcher. Villanueva and Scott Linebrink both pitched that night, but I think it would have made more sense to use Linebrink (or Turnbow) to put out the fire in the 6th, and then Villanueva in the 7th, which would have been a lower-pressure situation. I see other teams putting in 5.00+ ERA pitchers to start the 7th and 8th inning (and pull them if they get into trouble), but Ned seems to think that later innings are automatically more important just because its a higher number. If you have the bottom of the order coming up, there's nothing wrong with using Chris Spurling or whichever AAAA pitcher is currently on the roster, even if it is the 8th inning.

[Thurston Fluff]

to put out the fire in the 6th, and then Villanueva in the 7th, which would have been a lower-pressure situation. I see other teams putting in 5.00+ ERA pitchers to start the 7th and 8th inning (and pull them if they get into trouble), but Ned seems to think that later innings are automatically more important just because its a higher number

 

You mean like the time in NY Ned put in some scrub (forget who) in the eigth he got in trouble and got replaced by T-Bow who then melted down? Ned didn't get any critisizm for that did he? There really is very few instances a bad pitcehr can come in without harming the chances at winning as the meltdown by Wise against Philly showed. Villy has been in pressure situations before and did just fine. So there is no reason for him not to be in those situations. If he sucks he's going to suck in any situation. I guess since I'm in the extreme minority in thinking Villy being worn down isn't an excuse I'll concede he is. Once in a while one has to admit when one is wrong. I guess on this I am. I do think there is a differance between worn out and tired. Perhaps he could get a second wind and help in the end yet if he can get some time off.

[thablingster]

to put out the fire in the 6th, and then Villanueva in the 7th, which would have been a lower-pressure situation. I see other teams putting in 5.00+ ERA pitchers to start the 7th and 8th inning (and pull them if they get into trouble), but Ned seems to think that later innings are automatically more important just because its a higher number

 

You mean like the time in NY Ned put in some scrub (forget who) in the eigth he got in trouble and got replaced by T-Bow who then melted down? Ned didn't get any critisizm for that did he?

That was the Monday Philly game after the NY series where Ned sent Shouse out there to face Rowand and Victorino. And Ned got roasted in that IGT for that move.

... and after going back and reading that box score and seeing how we blew a 6-2 lead I am angry again http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/mad.gif haha.

[Thurston Fluff]

That was Shouse? I thought it was Spurling or Dessens. Obviously I was wrong. Can't get anything right in this thread I guess. Regardless the point is still the same. He did just what Diskono said he should and got burnt anyway then got hammered for his stupidity. There is no right or wrong until after it plays out I guess.