Prejudice & Brewerfan.net

[Brian the Automator]

It has come to my attention that members of our staff are getting several long and bile-filled messages from a former poster, Imaji, with accusations of racism. He is threatening to take his case public, to the Journal/Sentinel. He is also threatening to disrupt our 2007 Fanfest even by passing out fliers indicating that we are are racists or promote a racist agenda.

 

This issue started when the user in question created an account with the avatar with the word "Jewboys" on it. The ability to display an avatar was removed from this user's account, because after a staff discussion, it was deemed to be an anti-Semitic slur. If you Google the words "jewboy" and "slur", you will see that it was a logical assumption on our part. After hearing this gentleman's replies about the avatar in this thread, I felt that the initial reason I had for banning his avatar no longer applied. I removed the restriction, despite my personal feeling that the avatar was still on shaky ground, because it partly violates our rule against religion, politics, etc in the forums. Given that the avatar is not only based on religion but ethnicity, and neither being of that religion or ethnicity, I went on the safe side and left it be.

 

One or more of our staff members took exception to the term "Jewboy", despite the fact that the originator of the avatar said that he was of Jewish heritage (and I have no reason to disbelieve him). This or these staff members are in a different position than I am regarding heritage/religion, and I feel very much have the right to weigh in on the topic. A staff member asked if he would consider changing his avatar, which was changed from the "Jewboy" avatar to a hockey team with the star of david (see linked thread earlier in this post to see what I'm referring to). That was fine by all of us, as is another avatar for the username "Hebrew Hammer" (a fan name given to honor Ryan Braun, who is of Jewish heritage).

 

To be clear, the term "Jew" was not the offensive term, it was "Jewboys".

 

I would like to have an open dialog with our community, as I've really gone as far out of my way as possible to keep all prejudism against race, sexual orientation, or religion off the site. For example, a user in the chat room a while ago stated that "MLB.tv is a bunch of jews", and was banned immediately by me, as the usage of the phrase was obviously derogatory. Users have been given strikes and/or banned for using the term "gay" to refer to things not of a homosexual nature as well. I've always done my best to provide the most respectful atmosphere to discuss the Milwaukee Brewers.

 

I don't want this topic, at least yet, to stray into other areas of improvement for the site, although we're always encouraging users to post here in the Issues forum with comments & suggestions. I would like to keep the focus here on prejudism against race, religion, and sexual orientation, as I feel those are the three areas of diversity that are targeted the most by people who are motivated by hate.

 

I would like to hear from those of you who feel that we handled this right and those of you who feel we handled this wrong. I would also like to hear from those of you who have been or are offended by something relating to this topic.

 

Thanks for your time,

Brian

[patrickgpe]

Thanks for Brian for bringing up this topic. My feeling is that this is a baseball website and while noone can seperate them selves from their political feelings, religion, sexual orientation, etc this is really not the place. When I saw that avatar for the first time I had the same reaction as some of the staff that it was degrotatory to the jewish people. I used the example that Marquette did not find the humor when students made a push to nickname their team the "Jumping Jesuits". As a catholic and alum, I felt that while it was creative it was somewhat offensive. I never have figured out why he felt a sense a pride calling his fantasy teams the Jewboys. I think you were perfectly within your right brian to try to take away that avatar. The hebrew hammer is a nickname of a brewer and i think its completely different than jewboys.

 

Personally I have never been offended by another poster on this site. I do like the off topic area of the site, but have seen numerous cases where simple topic stray away and get out of control. The Falwell one comes to mind. I started out that one because it was the death of a famous person and it got out of control very quickly and was locked. I love the fact that i can discuss the bucks or the news of the days without having to deal with the trolls on other bucks or sports boards. I just hope in the future that situations like the one the last 2 days in the issues thread can be avoided and i think an open dialog is the best way to do so.

[dlk9s]

I can't believe there has been so much debate and riled up emotions about a this.

 

The bottom line is this:

 

1) Imaji has an avatar that depicts a variation of the Dallas Cowboys helmet with the word "Jewboys" underneath.

2) Said avatar was deemed offensive to Jews, as it generally should be (I am Jewish, by the way).

3) Upon further review, it is found that Imaji is himself Jewish and uses the "Jewboys" name/logo to tout his faith, while at the same time having some fun with it.

4) Therefore, in the way it is being used, the avatar is perfectly fine.

 

I don't see the problem here. I also don't see why Imaji flew off the handle when it should have been entirely obvious that his avatar was originally banned not because BF.net hates Jews, but because management found it offensive towards Jews. In the end, this is all just the result of miscommunication on both sides. BF.net didn't tell Imaji why the avatar was inappropriate and Imaji didn't tell BF.net what it was all about.

 

EDIT: I find it extremely confusing that Imaji doesn't understand that the word "Jew" in and of itself is not a slur, but it becomes a slur depending on how it is used, including context and tone.

[SeriesFinale]

I had a bad vibe about that guy from the very start.

 

Bottom line, it's not about prejudice or any of that--it's about dealing with an avatar that was making people uncomfortable because of the slur connotations, not the actual intent of the poster. It would be no different than if an African-American poster had an avatar featuring the n-word or a homosexual poster had one with the f-word. They may have noble intentions of reappropriating the word, but it's inappropriate for this particular forum . It was my understanding that you didn't base your request to remove the avatar on anything other than that.

 

You guys handled it fine and actually gave him more leeway than he deserved.

[Lil Dummy]

I don't think "prejudism" is a word.

[brewcrewman17]

The poster in question seemed to me that his sole purpose of posting on this site was to be inflammatory - his post count reached what 70ish before he got banned, and how many of those posts where accusations of racism? - maybe 30? That particular type of poster shouldn't be welcome here in my opinion; this site is for intelligent baseball conversation, not rants about faith or politics, and those were the only two topics Imaji seemed interested in talking about. I think he can take his conversation and opinions elsewhere.

[Brian the Automator]

I don't think "prejudism" is a word.

 

You're right, subject line fixed.

[homer]

The thing I found funny was his stout defense that "Jewboy" is not a slur. But if you go to Google, type in "jewboy + slur" you'll get a ton of hits about all sorts of people getting in trouble for using that exact term. Apparently he is in the minority (pun not intended) in that regard.

[Team Canada]

I don't think "prejudism" is a word.

 

For us uneducated racists it sure is!

 

[whizkid]

As far as I go back, which is to the 50s, using the phrase jewboy, calling adult black males 'boy', using the term nappy-headed(in the news a while back) were and still are in some circles phrases used to denigrate minorities. That some people in these groups have chosen to adopt some of these phrases within their own trusted circle doesn't mean all members of minorities are comfortable with it or that it's mainstream. Not everyone seeing that avatar was going to see the issues thread and the explanation and a good number of new or casual readers would wonder what kind of ship Brewerfan is running. I know you're trying to run a tighter ship on language, personal attacks, political attacks etc. than Yahoo, mlb, espn and I for one appreciate it. Turning being sensitive about an at best questionably insulting avatar into charges of anti-semitism is ridiculous.

 

To me his later posts made it seem more of an anti-politically correct crusade than anything about Jewish pride. One of the best and also the worst things about the internet is the anonymity. You say you have no reason to not believe him but you also have no reason to believe him either, except our desire to believe most people are on the up and up and give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I don't know what went on privately with this but if it were my site, I would have deleted it first, asked questions second and wouldn't have reinstated it. I would have explained the reasons above and asked for compliance. If someone isn't willing to comply with that I would just assume they're not interested in being a meaningful contributor to the site. Seems pretty much what you guys did.

[PKBadger]

EDIT: I find it extremely confusing that Imaji doesn't understand that the word "Jew" in and of itself is not a slur, but it becomes a slur depending on how it is used, including context and tone.

Exactly right - this reminds me of an episode of "It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia" where this topic was covered (in a humorous light, of course).

I think you guys made the right call. The part I don't understand is that the guy said that he hadn't posted on message boards in like 7 years because he was tired of all the flame wars, and then went and started a bunch here.

[ajgodson]

I am pretty much shocked and dismayed that you have to deal with idiocy like this, Brian.

 

I'd seen that shirt (Jewboys) before and found it offensive and it's from a t-shirt company that makes their distasteful living selling t-shirts of an offensive nature.

 

You took the right steps. He's a complete idiot.

 

Thanks for putting up with this crap and keeping this site free of the degenerative hate-messages that perpetrate many forums.

[patrickgpe]

everyone else on this site picked an avatar that promotes individuality and at the same time does not offend. I choose to honor my favorite baseball movie. Some choose their favorite musical artist, baseball player etc. What the poster does not understand that Brain is the owner of this site and can choose what is and is not offensive. I know that deleting the avatar was not a fast decision and a one that was made alone. Since he explained himself and got his avatar back, i do not understand why he continued to attack posters who felt the avatar was inappropriate.

[mothershipconnection]

Toldya that guy was a shoo-in for a quick ban. I'm a behavior analyst - that's what I do. I hereby volunteer my sweet skills to screen new posters.

 

Dude was a breathtaking example of The North American Martyr Troll, Trollis Martyris Americanus. Any time someone comes out with the histrionics like that - just ban them, because they aren't ever going to be productive posters - they'll just continue to attempt to incite unrest and claim unfair persecution. For the maybe 1 person who recovered to be a decent poster, we've had what? 100 who were given another chance only to pull the same crap within a week or two. Behavior doesn't change unless the contingencies change, and they don't so it won't. When internet attention is conditioned as a powerful reinforcer, you will not engender an abative effect or competing response by dishing out a warning - you're simply delivering a mild aversive and you'll just get behavior which ramps up to it's previous levels.

 

As for him "going public", big friggin' deal. The forum is completely open to public viewing and anyone who wanted to see the site could do so from day one. It's not like he infiltrated our secret mountain base and uncovered something interesting. The whole thing is all right there for the entire world to see.

[Brian the Automator]

How do you know about our secret mountain base?

[Thurston Fluff]

I think the person in question would be hard pressed to find many Jews who don't know him who don't find the term offensive. There are some terms that are perfectly fine when used amounst a close group of people, all of whom know the background that simply cannot and should not be used in a mixed public forum. That is one of those terms. He may not like the fact that some deem it innappropriate and he may not have meant it that way but that doesn't mean it isn't offensive. I didn't view Hebrew Hammer as offensive since it has never been used as a coomonly offensive term. I use the term b**ch for my dog amounst dog people yet have purposefully refrained from using it on this board because I knew it had a derogetory term to some. Just because a person is Jewish, or whatever race, creed or color, doesn't make it alright to use terms others rightfully view as a slur.

I read the dog at Miller park one and the issues thread. Quit frankly the person sounded like a trouble maker. He claims not to have been banned from any site in several years. Which is kind of like bragging that you have't been arrested for a while.

Brian and all mods don't worry about this one you did nothing wrong except maybe bend over backwards a little to far to accomidate an person who seemed to be looking for a fight. I have no doubt all of BF.net will have your back. Not to mention if he acted like he did here in other places he will have zero credibility.

[jlau20]

First off, I think that was well-said Brian.

 

My only thought on the issue is that from every post I read from him, it felt to me like he was out looking for a reason to argue or defend himself when no one had really said anything to him about it. Having ran a website once before, I think you handled the situation well and were completely within rights to ask him to change the avatar, as the forum rules clearly state no religion or politics.

 

Whether or not the guy felt "Jewboys" was appropriate or not shouldn't have mattered because it offended other people.

[rwa12]

As another Jewish BF.net poster, I will agree that the term is derogatory. Being Jewish and okay with it doesn't make the term better. I don't think Catholic posters on here would get away with questionable avatars depicting molestation even if it doesn't bother them, because it is tacky and inappropriate. The term jew is not a slur, adding "boys" makes it negative in my opinion. Just like the term fan is not a slur, but calling someone a fanboy is meant to be. I wouldn't worry too much about this Brian, if this wad really wants to make that big of a deal about this, he will make himself look stupid in the process. I don't think the Jewish community is going to embrace him as a hero, really don't see this as anything more than another idiot with too much time on his hands. IMO this is the equivalent of a black poster wanting to use the "n" word in their avatar, even if it doesn't bother them, it will obviously bother others.

[Brian the Automator]

I know that the guy doesn't have a leg to stand on, but I wanted to use it as an opportunity to open things up a bit and make sure we didn't have tunnel vision on anything.

 

I probably won't make the entirety of the private messages he sent public, but be assured, he is quickly in my "top 5 brewerfan whackjobs of all-time" list. I've only had one other person make an attempt or offer to meet us in-person in order to make a point about how we're not good people.

[chuckiehacks]

Maybe he'll go to Royalfan.net and meet Brewerdad.

[HebrewHammer]

I've seen my username and avatar mentioned a few times and everyone agreed it shouldn't be a problem. I didn't think it would either.

 

The name "Hebrew Hammer" is obviously a term many Brewers fans use for Ryan Braun. It's a little tasteless but only offensive by the highest of PC standards. And even then I'm not sure people would be too offended.

 

The avatar is actually from a movie called "The Hebrew Hammer". It was made by quite a few famous Jewish people and at first the Anit-Defamation league had some issue but eventually declared that there is nothing wrong with the movie's name, content or imagery, such as my avatar. Google for it. I also think it has a Wikipedia entry.

 

So, to make it clear to everyone, the Anti-Defamation league has stated that the name "Hebrew Hammer" and the avatar I use here are not in violation of PC super standards or something any reasonable person would be offended by. And lastly, Ryan Braun has stated himself it's not offending to him.

[bacon06]

I like to apply the philosophy that my English teacher had on questionable things, "If you're not sure whether it's appropriate or not, then it's probably not."

[brewerjamie15]

I still gotta find out about that secret mountain thing.

As always though, if there is something about the site or how a situation was handled and you'd rather not speak up on the boards, please feel free to contact me via private message. Confidentiality is not a problem at all.

[TracyThom]

One of the reasons I enjoy posting here at brewerfan.net is that the language is strongly monitored. My wife cusses at me enough, I don't need to read it here. Same with offensive pictures and avatars. My daughter often reads over my shoulder. This is a safe site for her to look at. I don't need her to be asking what a "jewboy" is.

[Point Beer Is Best]

My wife cusses at me enough, I don't need to read it here.

You and me both, brother.

 

But to echo everyone else, this guy was just looking for trouble. Just because your avatar isn't offensive to you doesn't mean that it isn't offensive to others. "It's the name I use for my fantasy teams!" Well good for you. But if others find it offensive, it shouldn't be used here plain and simple. I just can't believe he refused to see how it could possibly be offensive and stick with the hockey jersey with the Star of David on it (which was really cool, by the way).