Bonds guilty of more than one cheating method?

[cruiserx43]

The complainers all just look jealous to me.

 

What exactly am I supposed to be jealous of? The fact that I am not the all time home run leader? It has been tough to deal with yes, but I guess with a little therapy I might just pull though.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

One at a time here, with civility...

 

"Mickey Mantle was raging alcoholic womanizer in today's age he would be on the front page or back page of the NY Post every day but back then the reporters hid it and every kid from the 50's and 60's idolizes him like some sort of God."

 

I understand this point, and I have mixed emotions about it. While I partially agree that Mantle's deification lacks all the facts it should, it seemed "nice" to believe in a hitter, a gamer, like him. It added some mystique to the game. On the other hand, I'm still amazed after reading Ken Stabler's book about how he was thrown out of bars at 5 AM, showed up for a noon game, barfed on the sidelines and in the locker room, and then threw 4 TD passes to win. But swallowing dozens of pills a day, and injecting yourself with animal hormones and stimulants, just so you can pursue personal records, just rings hollow.

 

"Players threw World Series games for money in the early 1900's...but somehow MLB has been pure until Barry Bonds ruined it?"

 

No, but at least those players were banned for life by a real commissioner unafraid of cleaning up his sport, regardless of the PR damage the sport would temporarily sustain. Not only is Bonds not forced to testify to George Mitchell's Blue Ribbon Panel, but Bud follows him around from town to town, ready to congratulate this stain on the game. And my money says that, even if Bonds IS found guilty of buying, using, injecting drugs, tax evasion, threats against those who could uncover him...Bud will still hail him as the new king.

 

"...but I still watch to be entertained and Barry Bonds was good and entertaining."

 

Barry Bonds hitting a tainted home run is about as satisfying to watch and as entertaining as seeing The Undertaker win a wrestling match. Before the matchup even came about, one of the 2 combatants (Mike Bacsik vs. Bonds, Hulk Hogan vs. Nacho Barrera, take your pick) has the blessings of his league/federation to succeed over the other, lesser known participant. As long as Bud allows this human stain to play, it's an insult to every legit player and every fan of legitimate baseball.

 

"I don't know if I will ever see another hitter as feared as Bonds has been and I just flat out enjoy seeing someone perform at that high of a level. I don't care if an athlete works out or not or just rolls out of bed and throws a perfect game hung over or takes 100 cortisone shots. Bonds is the best hitter I have ever seen play the game not to mention his Gold Gloves in the field, I don't question why he is good he just is, I could have taken all the roids in the world and not approached his ability. "

 

*sigh*

 

I'll never understand, I guess.

 

The man is not EARNING all this "respect", these "accomplishments." YOU may not have been able to take all the roids in the world and hit all those fake homers, but others who DO play by the rules, like Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey, David Ortiz, Prince, Manny Ramirez, Lance Berkman, Pujols....they COULD have, but apparently have chosen not to, because it's the human condition, "decency?" to want to earn it.

 

How about this? If you employ a "cheat" to advance to the highest levels in a PlayStation game, and you get the most points ever, or whatever the hell the "best" is considered, what's the joy in that? What has been accomplished? Earned?

 

It can't be entertaining if there are shortcuts being used to get there.

 

Ashlee Simpson lip-synching on Saturday Night Live is not really performing, putting extraordinary human skill out there, and neither is Bonds when he homers. His skill is store-bought. If that's enough to satisfy you, instead of genuine human accomplishment, then I really can't say any more. Sorry...

[MoneyballMan]

Geno, can I copy everything you've said in this thread and use it the next time I have an argument with someone about Bonds? Very well said all around. If anything, Bonds has not been dumped on enough. I'm not sure if it's political correctness or people being afraid of being called a racist (as he has done before to those questioning him), but if anything I believe he's been treated too well - by the press, by Selig, and especially by all of those morons giving him a standing ovation for 10 minutes.

[Never Outhustled]

Bonds holding the home run record is very fitting for baseball. It continues the sports tradition of tarnished records. Aaron played in seasons that were 8 games longer than Ruth's, making it slightly easier to break the record. Small *. Ruth never hit a homer off a black man. Huge *.

[BrewCrewForever]

Geno, I read most of your posts. Did you ever answer my earlier question. Do you consider Bonds to be a HOF or not? Is a top 10 player of all time? Or because of his years 2000-2004ish are you forgetting everything he did before that?

[mothershipconnection]

I'm not sure if it's political correctness or people being afraid of being called a racist (as he has done before to those questioning him)

 

Yeah, I actually had the race card dropped on the table by someone the other day when I said Bonds was a slimeball and Aaron will be the king until someone legitimately beats him. I responded to her allegation in complete disbelief. "You realize I just said Hank Aaron, a black man, is who I consider home run king, right? How in the world can you say I'm being racist by appreciating the accomplishment of one black man over another? I also consider Willie Mays to be better than Bonds - is that racist? Being of a certain race does not preclude someone from scrutiny, nor does it mean the subject of the conversation can't *gasp* actually be a rotten human being. Want me to pretend we're in 1998 and have me talk about McGwire? I'll say the same thing, only I'll support one white man over another. Would that make me racist to you?"

 

Those who play the race card have no leg to stand on in this discussion, except in a hypothetical world where Ruth never happened and someone claimed Harmon Killebrew (#9 all time and highest non-steroid HR total for a white hitter behind Ruth) was the real HR king.

[SeriesFinale]

Ashlee Simpson lip-synching on Saturday Night Live is not really performing, putting extraordinary human skill out there, and neither is Bonds when he homers.

How in the world do you want quantify this, that's my question--which ones do you throw out the window?

I'm not apologizing either, I'm just always interested in the level of vitriol that you didn't see with McGwire or Sosa (or even Shawne Merriman or Floyd Landis)

 

 

 

 

[mothershipconnection]

I'm just always interested in the level of vitriol that you didn't see with McGwire or Sosa (or even Shawne Merriman or Floyd Landis)

 

I don't think people are giving them a free pass - that seems to be a red herring that has been thrown into the debate by Bonds supporters. The reason they aren't all listed is because this has been a debate/discussion about Bonds, and not those people. When McGwire is discussed, the steroids are brought up, same with Sosa. Still, Bonds apologists demand that any time you discuss Barry cheating you must first list off every cheater in the history of sports before you dare attempt to tarnish the legacy of Barry Bonds. If someone bragged up Ken Caminnitti, people would bring up steroids for sure - it's just that you can't include a list of everyone who has cheated in a single discussion focused on a single player.

[Fatter than Joey]

By the way -- The term "apologist" is being misinterpreted and misused by some on this board -- Back in the old-old-school days, Person A would write and publish a theory. Upon presentation to the public, other dudes would criticize his theory, with another paper, challenging Person's A theory and labeling them whacked out bull-ploppy. Person A would then subsequently write something called "An apology about my dope theory and subsequent takes".

 

What this would be, would be a "defense" and not a plea for forgiveness, as the word "apology" is more commonly used in the new-school days. -- So in short, an "Apologist" is a "defender" -- not some dude begging for forgiveness, or making apologies for another person or jacked-up synthetic cheater.

[SeriesFinale]

Still, Bonds apologists demand that any time you discuss Barry cheating you must first list off every cheater in the history of sports before you dare attempt to tarnish the legacy of Barry Bonds.

 

That's absolutely not what I was saying--my question was a separate and I think valid one: why is the level of vitriol so much worse for Bonds? That is definitely part of a discussion "about Bonds" as you put it. Maybe it is just as simple an issue of him being a jerk, maybe it's the record, maybe it's in comparison to Hank Aaron. I don't know.

 

And yeah, FtJ, I knew what an apologist is...although I don't think I was apologizing for him or even really defending him, so I shouldn't have used the words. If he did use steroids, and much anecdotal evidence seems to point that he did, it's indefensible. But I'm frankly and honestly interested as to the level how much that taints the record moreso than other variables. (For instance, if he played in Houston the last 13 years instead of Candlestick and Pac Bell, and played without creams or clears or whatever, I get the feeling he'd still have a pretty good shot at 756). I'm interested in the non-quantifiables--that's not a defense of steroids.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Geno, I read most of your posts. Did you ever answer my earlier question. Do you consider Bonds to be a HOF or not? Is a top 10 player of all time? Or because of his years 2000-2004ish are you forgetting everything he did before that?"

 

I stepped away from the 'puter after a while, so I hadn't seen this.

 

To me, there are 2 Barrys. The pre-1999 player who was a genuine 5-tool superstar, multiple Gold Glove winner, and potential first ballot Hall of Famer.

 

Then there's the bloated ox whose voice was recorded as he threatened, in multiple instances, driven by 'roid rage, to murder Kimberly Bell and/or guys he suspected she was also seeing. The HGH-ingesting, tax-evading, junkie who stopped hustling on defense, who couldn't be bothered to attempt stolen bases anymore, the one who needed "rest" every other game, simply because he didn't feel like playing that day and wanted to prove to his manager that it was HE who ran the team.

 

Since you can't separate the 2 personnas who comprise the monster that Barry Bonds has become, there's no way in hell this cheating criminal should ever be allowed to even visit the Hall of Fame.

 

And if anyone has ever read the court documents, interviews with his relatives and associates, and all the other factual evidence in "Game of Shadows" as I have, you'd gain a new perspective. It should be required reading for anyone arguing for or against Bonds.

 

"I'm not apologizing either, I'm just always interested in the level of vitriol that you didn't see with McGwire or Sosa (or even Shawne Merriman or Floyd Landis) "

 

My though on this is, that McGwire has wisely gone into hiding, and it's (sadly) a case of "out of sight, out of mind" with him. McGwire won't ever make the Hall of Fame, and neither will Sosa, or Bonds. As for Merriman, Landis, Neifi Perez, Derrick Turnbow... to borrow another old phrase, "Lightning strikes the tallest tree." The media simply couldn't keep track of all these less brash cheaters, and unless they do something like threaten murder or evade income taxes...ya know, bigger Bonds-ian violations of criminal law, then their transgressions are noted, but not followed up on.

 

Is that the right way? Of course not. Hell, I hate the Chargers enough, much less a drug-fueled cheater who's getting off with a slap on the wrist.

 

But the media only seems capable of following one crisis, and more easily for them, one person, at a time...until the next news cycle when another young starlet gets busted again. (As a change, to make things more interesting, maybe it'll be a Duff sister or Bee-yotch Knowles next time.)

 

Sadly, in this mix you also have ESPN, a major media empire, which not only is breathlessly celebrating Bonds's false accomplishments at face value, but they actually once gave him his own reality show as a platform to advance whatever agendas he was pushing, which has so many conflicts of journalistic interest in it, that the network should lose it FCC license.

[BrewCrewForever]

To me, there are 2 Barrys. The pre-1999 player who was a genuine 5-tool superstar, multiple Gold Glove winner, and potential first ballot Hall of Famer.

 

Then there's the bloated ox whose voice was recorded as he threatened, in multiple instances, driven by 'roid rage, to murder Kimberly Bell and/or guys he suspected she was also seeing. The HGH-ingesting, tax-evading, junkie who stopped hustling on defense, who couldn't be bothered to attempt stolen bases anymore, the one who needed "rest" every other game, simply because he didn't feel like playing that day and wanted to prove to his manager that it was HE who ran the team.

 

Since you can't separate the 2 personnas who comprise the monster that Barry Bonds has become, there's no way in hell this cheating criminal should ever be allowed to even visit the Hall of Fame.

 

See, I do see your point. But in my own personal opinion you give Bonds a much harder time and make him into a huge monster. Im not saying that what your saying about him is not true, but I think you may be taking it to an extreme. And in my own personal opinion dont see how you can hold him out of the HOF. I appreciate your perspective and opinion. I just disagree. I would also say from your statements in this thread you are by far the most anti-Bonds person I have encountered. You really do hate him.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"See, I do see your point. But in my own personal opinion you give Bonds a much harder time and make him into a huge monster. Im not saying that what your saying about him is not true, but I think you may be taking it to an extreme."

 

Again, if you read even an excerpt of all the documented court testimony and personal interviews in the book, the facts, you'd gain a genuine perspective. As I noted earlier, lightning strikes the tallest tree, and Bonds set out to become that tallest tree, and when the lightning comes, he's amazed, and attributes the heat he rightly gets to racism. He IS a monster.

 

"And in my own personal opinion dont see how you can hold him out of the HOF."

 

Barry Bonds belongs in the Baseball Hall of Fame just as deservedly as Milli Vanilli earned their Grammy.

 

" I would also say from your statements in this thread you are by far the most anti-Bonds person I have encountered. You really do hate him."

 

I just have a tough time embracing, much less tolerating a cheating junkie who evades taxes and threatens murder, and whose "accomplishments" only came about after he took artificial means to "achieve" them. Then again, that's just me. I like my record holders, heroes and legends to genuinely accomplish the feats they lay claim to.

[BrewCrewForever]

and whose "accomplishments" only came about after he took artificial means to "achieve" them.

Bonds accomplished a hell of a lot before any of this steroids stuff was ever even mentioned. And I would be willing to bet he gets in the HOF. And on the first ballot.