Bonds guilty of more than one cheating method?

[brains and braun]

I agree, and would also argue that the commish isn't the only one to blame for the lack of baseball-specific rules with regard to this issue. Would the player's union have stood for this in the middle of the steroid era, and could baseball really afford another strike?

[cruiserx43]

Well I am an engineer (not that it means much) and an avid weightlifter and there are devices that can be used to lock you into position to force proper form and reduce your desire or natural inclination to cheat yourself as your muscles fatigue. Works the same way as a forced spotter I guess. Basically the arguement is that the "armor" manifests the proper swing time and again. Not sure this holds water, but can't necessarily refute it either. The size of Barry's body was always enough for me and the spike in numbers at an advanced age.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

I expected some to automatically defend Bonds under the "it wasn't technically against the rules when he did it" banner. (Yeah, and despite the DNA evidence, a jury of morons decided OJ Simpson is not a murderer, so he must not be.)

 

Of course, a bigger question is begged:

 

What about fairness, the spirit of the game?

 

Bonds didn't have the natural home run power to surpass Roger Maris's record, so he turned to artificial enhancements to make it happen. Nearly all other hitters don't get the inside of the plate from pitchers, but if you armor up (another unnatural enhancement), now your reachable zone is extended, and your batting average either goes up unnaturally, or you draw that many more walks, and your OBP reaches historical new highs. And if that armor serves to regulate and "perfect" your swing, then that's another unearned benefit that only he and a select few others, like Biggio, have enjoyed, as MLB turns yet another blind eye. HGH is not tested in the blood, as Donald Fehr and Gene Orza make this a bargainable contract point, and score another victory for the great Barry Bonds.

 

What if Bonds had special spikes designed just for him with springs in them or something which allowed him to run faster, jump higher...whatever. Or maybe he could have a special train track installed in San Francisco, which runs him around the bases at great sppeds, turning bunts into inside-the-park home runs? Technically, there are no rules against these, and no one else enjoys such an advantage, so therefore it must be OK. Anything goes. Or what if MLB allowed Bonds's handlers...OK, his drug dealers, to arrange to spike the other team's Gatorades whenever an opponent faced Barry? Technically, I don't belive there's a rule against spiking another team's drinks, so hooray Barry!

 

Before he got so jealous of fellow users McGwire and Sosa, Barry Bonds (playing by the rules, as far as we could see without the body armor and all the chemical bulking up) was well on his way to a 500 HR, 500 SB careeer, which already made him an uniquely-talented, Hall of Famer. He would have gotten my vote.

 

He also had a lovely wife, nice kids...but he got greedy there, too and had to have Kimberley Bell on the side. Technically illegal? No. But ethical? Also no. Disrespectful to his family, wife, friends and relatives of his family? Absolutely. Did he care? Nope, because it's Barry first.

 

This slob treats the game of baseball the same way. Is it technically illegal to take drugs which haven't been banned yet, or that the tests don't cover? No. Is it ethical? Also no. Is it disrespectful to everyone else who loves the game? Nope, because again, it's Barry first.

 

I didn't watch his home run, and I especially avoided ESPN's wall-to-wall coverage, because a) it's as genuine as WWE wrestling, and more importantly, b) it offends me that this science experiement gets to thumb his nose at the spirit of a game he professes to love so much, and bask in undeserved glory.

 

But no, his cap size, increased spike size, back-ne, baldness, ballooning chest, all those tell-tale signs of added HGH to the system...nah, they mean nothing, because right now, technically, he's a saint. Turn a blind eye to his misdeeds, and the game of baseball is cheapened.

[homer]

The funny thing is that sans steroids, Bonds would have gone down as one of the top 10 (maybe even top 5) players to ever don a uniform. It's almost Shakespearian in its irony.

 

I could care less about his personal life though- he's a jag but doesn't come close to Ty Cobb's level (as far as I know, Barry has never pistol whipped someone to death) or Steve Garvey who once had three separate women impregnated at the same time (none of whom was his wife).

[PKBadger]

I hate it when people make Bonds out to be some sort of martyr, pointing out that "he's only hated because of his personality".

 

Ted Williams was a complete jerk, but people were able to overlook that. Why? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he sacrificed his prime years as a ballplayer to fly fighter planes in WWII.

 

(Oh yeah, Teddy also didn't try to conduct science experiments on himself until after he was dead.) http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

I'd like to see Barry do a couple of tours in Iraq.

[endaround]

People only started to like Ted Williams outside of Boston after he was gone for a decade.

 

I like Geno's little judo thing going on there. Roger Maris' record? Bonds didn't break Maris' record. Broke a record held by the name McGuire. And I would hardly be surprised if Maris used steroids. After all hair loss is a symptom of steroid use.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

Ted Williams:

Plusses? Great hitter, dedication to the game, multiple tours of duty defending his country as he sacrificed a sizable chunk of his career.

Minuses? Could be a jerk sometimes.

Barry Bonds:

Plusses? Until 1999, he was among the best all-around players in baseball.

Minuses? Mounting evidence of tax evasion, adultery, threatened bodily harm to mistress, chemical abuse, disloyalty to close friend rotting in jail for him, possible perjury charges....oh yeah, and he could be a jerk sometimes.

It's a push! http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/laugh.gif

______________

edit...

"I like Geno's little judo thing going on there. Roger Maris' record? Bonds didn't break Maris' record. Broke a record held by the name McGuire. And I would hardly be surprised if Maris used steroids. After all hair loss is a symptom of steroid use. "

Actually, he surpassed another artificial milestone held by the name McGwire. But thanks for correcting me just the same.

Go ahead, end, and ignore the back-ne, increased spike, uniform top and cap sizes, as well as the roid rages if that makes you feel better as a Bonds apologist. Because if all you've got is baldness to go on, then Joe Pepitone, Ron Santo and Mike Kingery, who mysteriously hid their baldness, were prime suspects.

[BrewCrewForever]

The funny thing is that sans steroids, Bonds would have gone down as one of the top 10 (maybe even top 5) players to ever don a uniform. It's almost Shakespearian in its irony.

 

I could care less about his personal life though- he's a jag but doesn't come close to Ty Cobb's level (as far as I know, Barry has never pistol whipped someone to death) or Steve Garvey who once had three separate women impregnated at the same time (none of whom was his wife).

Yeah Bonds was not as big of a jerk as people make him out to be. And I agree, Bonds without all the HR's is a top 5 player of all time. That is why I still like Bonds. I know he probably used roids, but so did a lot of players in baseball. I wont let that over shadow how great a player he was and still is. I think his greatest asset of all is his knowledge of the strike zone. You dont hardly ever see him swing at a bad pitch. Where as you see so many players swing at garbage on a regular basis. Also, he doesnt try to pull everything. If its outside he goes to LF.

 

[JohnBriggs12]

People talk on and on about steroids. It's HGH that's the problem in recent years and MLB has no test for it.

I've read places that HGH can improve eyesight. So those that say, "well he still has to hit the ball", need to keep in mind that HGH may have helped him see the ball better.

[homer]

I've read places that HGH can improve eyesight. So those that say, "well he still has to hit the ball", need to keep in mind that HGH may have helped him see the ball better.

That's what the guy on Costas' show said. It coudl improve hand eye as well as power.

 

And I think the term "steroids" has evolved into catch all for pretty much any illegal/unethical muscle/athletic enhancement drug.

[BMuch]

I've read places that HGH can improve eyesight.

 

I take prescribed prednisolone drops daily. This drug is a steriod which improves my eyesight.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"That is why I still like Bonds. I know he probably used roids, but so did a lot of players in baseball. I wont let that over shadow how great a player he was and still is. "

 

The luxurious Drake Hotel in downtown Chicago sets up a poster in the lobby of the motel for travelers staying at a certain motel in Dekalb only, offering a free week-long stay with only 1 vacancy left to the first person to reach their location on Michigan Avenue. Only 10 of us see the ad, and we jump into our various vehicles, to get from DeKalb to Chicago. Cops are hiding behind billboards on the interstate with radar guns aimed at the passing traffic. After doing diligent prep work to avoid traffic snarls to hopefully get there first, I drive 54 MPH and change lanes wisely. But a few others who also heard the message, are doing 70, and can get there ahead of me. But then there's this guy (let's call him "Barry"), who was born very rich, and pays his friends to tune up his Mustang to exceed normal capacity and usage, as he peels out, going 140 MPH all the way, and wins!

 

The state troopers couldn't keep up with him, and Barry had rubbed a special undetectable cream on his license plate to obscure it from the cameras and eyes of law enforcement officials as he whizzed by, so he wasn't technically cited for breaking the law, although anyone could plainly see he did.

 

Hooray, Barry!

[WV Brew]

Sports armor isn't illegal under any federal, state or municipal laws I'm familiar with, and that's what at's issue here. He was grandfathered in under baseball's armor rule, therefore he isn't breaking any rules and therefore not cheating when he wears it.

 

It wasn't illegal for Babe Ruth to play in a league without African players. Yet, Barry goes on endlessly how the Babe is unworthy because he didn't play against them. He never mentions that the Bambino was an orphan and Barry was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Each player had some advantages over the other. It's all a matter of opinion, but to me Barry is Jim Rice without the juicing. Check out his Pirate stats. They are good but certainly not great. Compare them to Rice.

[BrewCrewForever]

"That is why I still like Bonds. I know he probably used roids, but so did a lot of players in baseball. I wont let that over shadow how great a player he was and still is. "

 

The luxurious Drake Hotel in downtown Chicago sets up a poster in the lobby of the motel for travelers staying at a certain motel in Dekalb only, offering a free week-long stay with only 1 vacancy left to the first person to reach their location on Michigan Avenue. Only 10 of us see the ad, and we jump into our various vehicles, to get from DeKalb to Chicago. Cops are hiding behind billboards on the interstate with radar guns aimed at the passing traffic. After doing diligent prep work to avoid traffic snarls to hopefully get there first, I drive 54 MPH and change lanes wisely. But a few others who also heard the message, are doing 70, and can get there ahead of me. But then there's this guy (let's call him "Barry"), who was born very rich, and pays his friends to tune up his Mustang to exceed normal capacity and usage, as he peels out, going 140 MPH all the way, and wins!

 

The state troopers couldn't keep up with him, and Barry had rubbed a special undetectable cream on his license plate to obscure it from the cameras and eyes of law enforcement officials as he whizzed by, so he wasn't technically cited for breaking the law, although anyone could plainly see he did.

 

Hooray, Barry!

So you dont think Barry was a great player? And not a HOF?

 

Edit: So you dont think Barry was one of the top 10 players off all time and a HOF, steroids or not?

 

Also I would like to clear up my quote, I meant to say I wont let the roids issue overshadow all of his stats and what not before the 2000 season. After that it is very questionable. I agree with that.

[endaround]

Rice's WARP for his career was 79.3. Bonds WARP by age 32 was 126.3. No Rice and Bonds are not comparable.

 

EDIT:For a bit more perspective, Yount's career WARP was 114.5. Arod's currently at 110.5

[homer]

It's all a matter of opinion, but to me Barry is Jim Rice without the juicing. Check out his Pirate stats. They are good but certainly not great. Compare them to Rice.

Barry left the Pirates after his age 27 year. You can't just use those stats to back up your claim. He had some amazing years with the Giants before the whole 'roids thing started.

 

Not to mention Bonds had 8 Gold Gloves. Rice had 0. And Rice never stole more than 10 bases in a season - Barry stole more than 30 bases 9 times.

[MJLiverock]

I root for Bonds because he irritates a certain segment of baseball fans that I love to see irritated. Baseball is the one sport where a large segment of writers and fans want to live in the past and glorify every player that came before at the expense of the greats right before their eyes. Baseball has such a long history full of changes to rules, teams, players, etc. that no fair comparison can be made from the early greats to today save that yeah Tris Speaker, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb were great just as Henry Aaron Willie Mays, are great and Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey Jr, and Roger Clemens are great players in history and deserve to be recognized as such. I honestly don't care what Bonds took or didn't take because I know when watching him play he was the best player on the field and that is why I watched baseball to be entertained not cry and whine about who is better, a current guy or a guy played 75 years ago. It is like listening to a guy lament over a girl he dated 20 years ago in high school, I get it she was hot, but geez move on with your life and enjoy what is in front of you today. In 30 years baseball writers and a group of curmudgeon fans will complain about how some new upstart is no Barry Bonds or ARod and the cycle will start all over. I just hope I am not one of them and can look back and say yep, Bonds was the best of his era be it the Steroid Era, or whatever. Just like the great players of the live ball era, or the few Asians era or the low mound era or the high mound era, or the spit ball era, or the Latino Era, or the Whites Only era, or the WWIII era, or the greenies era, or the no relief pitchers era, or the countless other ways baseball has changed over the last 100 years.

 

The greatness of Bonds' ability does not diminish the greatness of those who came before because it is all relative to their era. Greatness is not a zero sum game to me. Giving Bonds credit does not mean I have to lose appreciation for Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Williams. Just like I can appreciate Erin Andrews, I know the boobs are fake, but she is still hot and it doesn't diminish my appreciation for an all natural hottie out there.http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/eek.gif

 

I also like that he is vilified by the media for being a jerk yet I hear very little evidence offered except that is accepted he is a jerk. I don't care about his mistress countless pro athletes have them and don't get ripped for it. All I can recall was some complaining about a leather chair and a big screen TV which after further review didn't bother teammates and isn't really uncommon for a star to get some better clubhouse amenities. Bonds probably is a jerk to reporters but that is his choice just like Eddie Murray or Steve Carlton. I have always wondered about how much of the jerk rep is just because reporters don't like him. I haven't heard much from teammates that says bad about him. Barry Zito just did an article this year about what a great teammate he is. Does he take a rookie under his wing? No, but not many superstars do, it isn't their job. I remember the Jeff Kent altercation but they seemed to get along after that. As we have seen this year and in other years dugout altercations are not unheard of in a 162 game season. I just look at some of the posts after Bonds tore into himself during his slump this year and people vilify him for being critical of himself. He breaks the all time HR record and raises his arms in victory and people complain, I mean come on it was a historical moment but no the purists wouldn't enjoy it. Others complain about his kid's reaction, or his mother or wife, etc. The complainers all just look jealous to me.

[BrewCrewForever]

I root for Bonds because he irritates a certain segment of baseball fans that I love to see irritated. Baseball is the one sport where a large segment of writers and fans want to live in the past and glorify every player that came before at the expense of the greats right before their eyes. Baseball has such a long history full of changes to rules, teams, players, etc. that no fair comparison can be made from the early greats to today save that yeah Tris Speaker, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb were great just as Henry Aaron Willie Mays, are great and Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey Jr, and Roger Clemens are great players in history and deserve to be recognized as such. I honestly don't care what Bonds took or didn't take because I know when watching him play he was the best player on the field and that is why I watched baseball to be entertained not cry and whine about who is better, a current guy or a guy played 75 years ago. It is like listening to a guy lament over a girl he dated 20 years ago in high school, I get it she was hot, but geez move on with your life and enjoy what is in front of you today. In 30 years baseball writers and a group of curmudgeon fans will complain about how some new upstart is no Barry Bonds or ARod and the cycle will start all over. I just hope I am not one of them and can look back and say yep, Bonds was the best of his era be it the Steroid Era, or whatever. Just like the great players of the live ball era, or the few Asians era or the low mound era or the high mound era, or the spit ball era, or the Latino Era, or the Whites Only era, or the WWIII era, or the greenies era, or the no relief pitchers era, or the countless other ways baseball has changed over the last 100 years.

 

The greatness of Bonds' ability does not diminish the greatness of those who came before because it is all relative to their era. Greatness is not a zero sum game to me. Giving Bonds credit does not mean I have to lose appreciation for Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Williams. Just like I can appreciate Erin Andrews, I know the boobs are fake, but she is still hot and it doesn't diminish my appreciation for an all natural hottie out there.http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/eek.gif

 

I also like that he is vilified by the media for being a jerk yet I hear very little evidence offered except that is accepted he is a jerk. I don't care about his mistress countless pro athletes have them and don't get ripped for it. All I can recall was some complaining about a leather chair and a big screen TV which after further review didn't bother teammates and isn't really uncommon for a star to get some better clubhouse amenities. Bonds probably is a jerk to reporters but that is his choice just like Eddie Murray or Steve Carlton. I have always wondered about how much of the jerk rep is just because reporters don't like him. I haven't heard much from teammates that says bad about him. Barry Zito just did an article this year about what a great teammate he is. Does he take a rookie under his wing? No, but not many superstars do, it isn't their job. I remember the Jeff Kent altercation but they seemed to get along after that. As we have seen this year and in other years dugout altercations are not unheard of in a 162 game season. I just look at some of the posts after Bonds tore into himself during his slump this year and people vilify him for being critical of himself. He breaks the all time HR record and raises his arms in victory and people complain, I mean come on it was a historical moment but no the purists wouldn't enjoy it. Others complain about his kid's reaction, or his mother or wife, etc. The complainers all just look jealous to me.

Great post. People like to complain about everything and anything that has to do with Bonds. That is just the way it is. People should at least take a moment to look past the steroid thing and just look at his entire career. Stats and awards. Its insane. I put him right with Griffey as the greatest player I ever got to see in person. As far as all around player goes.

 

[Phenomenal Smith]

MJLiverock wrote:

The greatness of Bonds' ability does not diminish the greatness of those who came before because it is all relative to their era. Greatness is not a zero sum game to me. Giving Bonds credit does not mean I have to lose appreciation for Aaron, Mays, Ruth, Williams. Just like I can appreciate Erin Andrews, I know the boobs are fake, but she is still hot and it doesn't diminish my appreciation for an all natural hottie out there.http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/eek.gif

Well said - especially the zero sum part. Some people think that giving Bonds credit takes away from Aaron and that just isn't the case.

 

[SeriesFinale]

I started to realize how consuming to the point of irrational people's hatred of Bonds is when people here started taking his 8 year old daughter to task for her reactions.

[BrewCrewForever]

I started to realize how consuming to the point of irrational people's hatred of Bonds is when people here started taking his 8 year old daughter to task for her reactions.

Yeah or the way his wife or son acted. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[PKBadger]

MJLiverock wrote:

I also like that he is vilified by the media for being a jerk yet I hear very little evidence offered except that is accepted he is a jerk..... I have always wondered about how much of the jerk rep is just because reporters don't like him. I haven't heard much from teammates that says bad about him.

 

Read this book excerpt and tell me what you think. His teammates at Arizona State voted him off the team by a count of 22-2. The dirtbag coach was the only one who saved his collegiate career (and I'm sure Papa Bobby had something to do with it).

 

Excerpt from "Love Me, Hate Me"

[Fatter than Joey]

He had some amazing years with the Giants before the whole 'roids thing started.

 

I guess that is the frustrating thing for me -- clearly Bonds is/was a very special player -- he did not need to get on the juice to hold down a MLB job. It would have been fun to see where he would have compared to some of the greats w/o getting that synthetic edge.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

Lotsa bold words...

 

"I honestly don't care what Bonds took or didn't take because I know when watching him play he was the best player on the field "

 

You're playing pinball, and you try to be the king of the pizza place by earning the high score. You amass 2,200,000 points. The next week, a jealous 15-year-old comes in, tilts the machine, fixes it so that he gets 2,200,001 and now you're not king anymore...like Hank Aaron. The tenager is now, even though you saw evidence that he blatantly cheated.

 

So, if someone cheats to gain a record, which had been earned legitimately by someone before him, has the cheater earned your praise? I guess so.

 

"...and that is why I watched baseball to be entertained not cry and whine about who is better, a current guy or a guy played 75 years ago. It is like listening to a guy lament over a girl he dated 20 years ago in high school, I get it she was hot, but geez move on with your life and enjoy what is in front of you today."

 

Very bad analogy, MJL.

 

I cheered for Hank Aaron to break the record of some old fogey from the 20's. And while I didn't like his style, when Pete Rose got 4,192, I had to applaud him. Emmitt Smith? Congrats. Wayne Gretzky holds 61 new records in the NHL, which he deserves.

 

You're confusing lamenting the past and the golden age, or a lost relationship. with a rooting interest in someone EARNING a record. If what's in front of me today is legit, I'm all over it.

 

"I also like that he is vilified by the media for being a jerk yet I hear very little evidence offered..."

 

Ever bother to read even an excerpt of "Game of Shadows?"

 

Kimberley Bell kept a voice message cassette tape of Bonds threatening her if she went to the authorities with evidence on him. Bonds would agree to fees for autograph and card shows, and then NOT report these earnings on his income tax (which is a jailable offense, last time I checked), and then he'd set these hidden streams of money aside for apartments and gifts for Bell and other women outside his marriage.

 

In this book, Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada conducted over 200 interviews with persons of interest in the case, and their evidence references over 1,000 documents including affidavits from BALCO investigators and grand jury testimony. Ya know, legitimate evidence. In response, what's Barry's defense against these allegations? Not much. If the book was all a lie, as Bonds stated, why wouldn't he sue, or even THREATEN to sue Lance and Mark?

 

I just wish every Bonds apologist would read the facts first, and then make a decision...

[MJLiverock]

See Geno the problem is I am not apologizing for Bonds. I honestly don't care what juice he took so the whole Balco thing is meaningless. Baseball is full of juicers just as it was full of speed poppers, coke users, alcoholics, wife beaters and all sorts of miscreants for the last 100 years. I choose to accept it and enjoy the game for what it is rather than pull out some false hope that players in the past were some sort of saints and played the game for game and not the money and fame that came with it. Mickey Mantle was raging alcoholic womanizer in today's age he would be on the front page or back page of the NY Post every day but back then the reporters hid it and every kid from the 50's and 60's idolizes him like some sort of God. Players threw World Series games for money in the early 1900's so apparently the idea of getting more money has been around for quite some time. I know of at least 3 players on my high school football team took roids in 1988 and 1989 and this was in a small WI town. Do you honestly think MLB players just started taking roids in the 90's? They were rampant in the NFL in the 1970's, Olympics in the 1960's but somehow MLB has been pure until Barry Bonds ruined it?

 

I have learned more about stats and analysis in the past couple years of reading this site than in my previous 25 + years of watching baseball but I still watch to be entertained and Barry Bonds was good and entertaining. I mean intentially walking a guy with the bases loaded is about as much respect a hitter can get. I don't know if I will ever see another hitter as feared as Bonds has been and I just flat out enjoy seeing someone perform at that high of a level. I don't care if an athlete works out or not or just rolls out of bed and throws a perfect game hung over or takes 100 cortisone shots. Bonds is the best hitter I have ever seen play the game not to mention his Gold Gloves in the field, I don't question why he is good he just is, I could have taken all the roids in the world and not approached his ability. Just like steroids can't make me Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky something makes them great and it the performances they put on. Maybe Barry can't be as clean as that other guy Lance Armstrong who we all know couldn't possibly have taken EPO, I mean he is a cancer survivor and had all those yellow wristbands.

 

Barkley said it best, (paraphrase), "I am not a hero." I couln't agree more and add my own, "Don't look for athletic talent to be a precursor for character."