Bonds guilty of more than one cheating method?

[bullox]

What do you think about this?

 

For years, sportswriters remarked that his massive "protective" gear - unequaled in all of baseball -- permits Bonds to lean over the plate without fear of being hit by a pitch. Thus situated, Bonds can handle the outside pitch (where most pitchers live) unusually well. This is unfair advantage enough, but no longer controversial. However, it is only one of at least seven (largely unexplored) advantages conferred by the apparatus.

 

Another way for Bonds to cheat?

 

 

(consolidated tags --1992)

[Thurston Fluff]

Couldn't agree more. I always wondered why there wasn't rules banning body armor. i believe there is some sort of rule now about hard protective gear on the arms. Biggio was one who abused the elbow armor as well. He'd stick out the elbow armor on any inside pitch hopeing to get hit. I don't have a problem with that provided he had to suffer the consequenses of getting hit on the bare arm. If they are goping to allow protective gear they should make a rule stating that getting hit on protective gear is a non pitch. It would prevent the hitter from gaining an advantage.

[endaround]

So now cheating includes doing things allowed by the rules?

[DannoMac21]

It's unreal how much people like to pick on Bonds, yet so many players in the past did the same thing. No matter how much he injected himself, you still have to be a damn good baseball player to be where he's at.

[bullox]

So now cheating includes doing things allowed by the rules?

Did you read the article? Basically the body armor is more of a machine that forces his swing to be perfect every time. He is only allowed to use it because he has been 'grandfathered' in, new players can't wear one unless they have proof of an injury.

 

[RoseBowlMtg]

I heard Orel Hersheiser say that about Bonds and Biggio specifically. He said it was absolutely unfair for the two of them since they took away the inside of the plate and he could only pitch outside which is a huge advantage. This was about 6 weeks ago I heard Orel rage about that. Cheater! Those who say everyone did it ask Mike Greenwell how he feels about coming in second to Canseco in the MVP. Sure Bonds gets more because he is so successful but it is also because he is such a jerk. In America if you admit your misdoings people forgive. Barry is not there yet if ever.

[BREWCREW5]

It's unreal how much people like to pick on Bonds, yet so many players in the past did the same thing. No matter how much he injected himself, you still have to be a damn good baseball player to be where he's at.

 

I hear people say this all the time and it doesnt make any sense....Steroids can take a average player and make them an all star....Steroids can take an all-star and make them a Legend.

[Kpanz20]

So now cheating includes doing things allowed by the rules?

This is a little off topic because its not about the body armour in particular but... that statement made me immediately think about the glaring irony that this statement could be applied to Bonds' and others' steriods use.

 

A lot of the stuff that Bonds and others took such as the clear and andro weren't illegal when they first started taking them. They weren't breaking any rules in the beginning because there were no rules. But many many people would argue they were given an unfair advantage compared to earlier players and thus tainting baseball's history.

 

People should be reminded that it is baseball officials (Selig) who turned a blind eye and allowed the "cheating" to go on.... so because of a lack of rules they weren't cheating..

[SeriesFinale]

So now cheating includes doing things allowed by the rules?

Did you read the article? Basically the body armor is more of a machine that forces his swing to be perfect every time. He is only allowed to use it because he has been 'grandfathered' in, new players can't wear one unless they have proof of an injury.

 

 

Regardless, it's not technically "cheating."

[BrewCrewForever]

I think people look for any reason to get on Barry Bonds at every opportunity.

[trwi7]

It's unreal how much people like to pick on Bonds, yet so many players in the past did the same thing. No matter how much he injected himself, you still have to be a damn good baseball player to be where he's at.

I hear people say this all the time and it doesnt make any sense....Steroids can take a average player and make them an all star....Steroids can take an all-star and make them a Legend.

 

They can also take Neifi Perez and turn him into Neifi Perez.http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/happy.gif

[Boy Jeenius]

Perez took speed, not steroids.

[trwi7]

Perez took speed, not steroids.

 

Okay what about Alex Sanchez?http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/happy.gif

[rluzinski]

I find that his list goes from questionable to absurd very quickly. I'd be curious to think what another engineer thinks.

[bullox]

So now cheating includes doing things allowed by the rules?

Did you read the article? Basically the body armor is more of a machine that forces his swing to be perfect every time. He is only allowed to use it because he has been 'grandfathered' in, new players can't wear one unless they have proof of an injury.

 

Regardless, it's not technically "cheating."

So if it was found out that Tiger Woods had some sort of implant in his arm that forced his swing to be perfect every time, it would be allowable and not considered cheating?

 

 

Also - steroids have always been illegal. Baseball does not supersede the law. Just because steroids weren't against the rules of baseball at one point doesn't make it okay for players to have taken them during that time.

[bullox]

I find that his list goes from questionable to absurd very quickly. I'd be curious to think what another engineer thinks.

 

 

 

I got the same feeling, but at the same time some of the points do make sense. At what point did you consider the list absurd?

[mothershipconnection]

It's not cheating to wear armor - but I think it sucks and should be against the rules for too much of a body to be covered or for it to be too hard except for a league-approved period following an injury.

[bullox]

I don't think the point is that he's wearing armor. It's that the armor essentially functions as a swing coach.

[SeriesFinale]

So now cheating includes doing things allowed by the rules?

Did you read the article? Basically the body armor is more of a machine that forces his swing to be perfect every time. He is only allowed to use it because he has been 'grandfathered' in, new players can't wear one unless they have proof of an injury.

 

Regardless, it's not technically "cheating."

So if it was found out that Tiger Woods had some sort of implant in his arm that forced his swing to be perfect every time, it would be allowable and not considered cheating?

 

 

Also - steroids have always been illegal. Baseball does not supersede the law. Just because steroids weren't against the rules of baseball at one point doesn't make it okay for players to have taken them during that time.

 

Sports armor isn't illegal under any federal, state or municipal laws I'm familiar with, and that's what at's issue here. He was grandfathered in under baseball's armor rule, therefore he isn't breaking any rules and therefore not cheating when he wears it.

 

Steroids are a completely different issue--I believe he took them but believe it's not quantifiable--but let's not dogpile here about other very gray areas.

[don1481]

BREWCREW5 wrote:I hear people say this all the time and it doesnt make any sense....Steroids can take a average player and make them an all star....Steroids can take an all-star and make them a Legend.

IMO Bonds was already a legend to begin with pre-steroids. He was definitely one of the best of his generation; my issue with Bonds boils down to "if you were already pretty much a lock for the Hall of Fame, why did you have to get greedy?" He didn't need the competitive advantage, he was a great ballplayer in his own right. That's what makes me mad about all of this.

 

As far as Russ' point before, I really don't know where the points made in that article make all that much sense. I agree with Russ; the list just moves from "meh" to "reaching frantically for straws" in short order.

[Madtown Bomber]

The Bonds taking steroids/HGH only holds merit if he was the only one taking it. While the whole Bonds backlash has occured the major issue for me is why nobody wants to look at the rest of baseball. Sure it is wrong but what Bonds did is still a remarkable feet. If you feel HGH was the cause of his inflated statistics then what does that say about the pitchers who were taking steroids/HGH? Oh wait Bonds, Giambi, Palmero are the only ones who took the stuff wink wink...yeah those animals! They are the reasons for alllllllll this tarnishing of the game of baseball. And pigs fly too.

 

As far as Bonds wearing protective padding over his elbow, we are nit picking. I still wear a elbow pad while playing baseball. The better the hitter you are the more pitchers want to work you inside and away from the plate to set you up outside. I got hit more then the rest of the team combined. These pitches hurt. I remember getting hit right on the elbow with tailing 2 seamer from Don August a few years ago and I couldn't feel my hand for nearly a week...and you are telling me I can't wear a elbow gaurd? Sounds like a witch hunt to me.

[rluzinski]

I'm no expert but I'll share my thoughts:

 

It is a literal "hitting machine" that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. It largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke.

Reasonable theory but to matter-of-factly conclude that it "largely accounts" for anything without offering any actual evidence makes me question the author right off the bat.

 

The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds' wrists.

 

The elbow itself does basically the same thing and I really picture how that produces a mechanical advantage anyway. Just like how a pitcher's throwing motion is a long kinematic chain, I would think you maximize bat velocity by maximizing the angular acceleration of each joint. Heck, wouldn't it better if a bater's elbow was double jointed, so he would use his triceps to add energy over a greater angle?

 

When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus "connected," he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body - not just his arms - as average hitters ("extending") tend to do.

 

I just can't see it working like that.

Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a "protector" facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin.

 

That, or swinging 30 times in a row is different than swinging 4 times in an AB? Maybe he's right but it's nothing more than speculation.

 

Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his "assistant" - counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation. When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest.

 

Ignoring whether that's even analogous, isn't the goal to generate bat speed, not angular velocity?

 

At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his "assistant") not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of "assistant" and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.

 

Reasonable theory, although adding weight at the elbow wouldn't help nearly as much as at the end of the bat, would it?

 

I never played past little league and have never given much thought about the actual mechanics of a bat swing, so I could be way off on one or many of these comments. I don't completely understand the physics behind a batted ball. Does the bat spend a relatively short time in contact with the ball or does a batter add significant energy by driving through the ball? I guess I could at least try googling a popular mechanics article before spouting off. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Overall, it just sounds like the author is trying awfully hard to overstate the advantage that the guard gives Bonds, however.

 

[PKBadger]

I don't think the point is that he's wearing armor. It's that the armor essentially functions as a swing coach.

 

I think this needs to be emphasized again. The issue at hand is not the armor itself, it's the mechanics of said armor. This has nothing to do with protection from getting hit by pitches.

 

Since MLB approves the piece of equipment, it isn't "cheating" (although I would argue that anything meant to tamper with the integrity of the sport is, in fact, cheating). But it's more than likely that the guy from MLB that examines equipment like this just sees an elbow pad, and that there's been no examination of the potential benefits caused by wearing it.

 

I'm no engineer, so I have no idea if what the author says is true. But he seems legit - published in Time, SI, and the Wall St. Journal, and currently on an MLB team's payroll to study mechanics.

[Hammer]

I found Barrys rookie card. Wow, he has really changed!!

 

http://attach.mud.mail.yahoo.com/us.f386.mail.yahoo.com/ym/us/ShowLetter?box=Inbox&MsgId=6679_6677615_49647_1738_17872_0_3820_28431_2570172062&bodyPart=2&YY=94376&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&Idx=0

[MoneyballMan]

Also - steroids have always been illegal. Baseball does not supersede the law. Just because steroids weren't against the rules of baseball at one point doesn't make it okay for players to have taken them during that time.

 

Great point and one that rarely comes up.