Textbook Bullpen Mismanagement

[Brewer Fever]

It's micro-managing a 5 run game. Not only did it fail, but even if it had succeeded it would have further taxed a bullpen that our GM pointed out has hit the wall a full month earlier than can usually be expected. And a good reason this micro-managing failed today is because you're calling on 6 players to be successful instead of 2 or 3. You're relying on 6 tired, weary guys instead of 2-3 tired, weary guys. Play with fire, you're gonna get burnt.

 

Simply put, Yost needs to start seizing every opportunity to have his starters go along as possible. And he needs to start using relievers for more than 1 inning at a time. 5 run leads are not as common as we'd like to think they are. A starter at 83 pitches and 1 run allowed has to work further into the game. If you really think about it what does Yost have to lose? He almost has no choice but to leave starters out there in these situation. You can argue, what if Suppan implodes and blows it? We have to find out. They're not gonna hold on and win this thing by further taxing our bullpen. If the Brewers are going to pull this thing out the starters have to eat up more innings. And don't give me this stuff about the criticism Yost would get if he leaves Suppan in and he blows it. yost deosn't care about the criticism from fans, why should we?

[DougJones43]

Considering how much our bullpen has been over-used over the past few weeks, I was pretty surprised to see Suppan get pulled after only 5.2 innings of work. Unless there was something wrong with him that we are unaware of, I think he should have been left in there. He was pretty much cruising along, we had a 5 run lead, the bullpen seriously needed to be rested, and one of the main reasons we supposedly signed Suppan is his durability and knack for eating up innings.

I'm not saying that decision won or lost the game today, but if you give Suppan a chance to go 7-8 innings intead of 5.2, our bullpen would be in better shape for the rest of the week. We still don't have a day off until Thursday.

[Brian the Automator]

I will guarantee you that if Suppan gave up a 3-spot in the inning and the Brewers blew the game, you would have had people calling for Yost's head as well. Once Yost made that decision to pull Soup, he played the bullpen out the best he could have.

[Brewer Fever]

I will guarantee you that if Suppan gave up a 3-spot in the inning and the Brewers blew the game, you would have had people calling for Yost's head as well. Once Yost made that decision to pull Soup, he played the bullpen out the best he could have.

See my post above. Yost doesn't care what the fans say. He better not be making decisions to avoid criticism. We need our starters to work further into the game to lessen the load on the bullpen. He's stated as much himself over and over. The Brewers are going nowhere if our bullpen continues to be over-worked. In my mind that leaves one option. Ride those starters when given the opportunity. Today was a perfect opportunity. Either they lose this thing one way, ( an overworked bullpen continually blowing leads) or we lose it by pushing our starters and their failure to respond. At least with the starters there remains the possibilty of a good outcome. If the Brewers are going to win anything their starters have to be capable of going beyond 83 pitches with 5 run leads. Today Yost missed another opportunity to find out.

[IslandsAC]

The bullpen is a tricky beast. Earlier in the season I was furious at Yost for how much of a leash he was giving struggling pitchers. I have to catch myself now if I start to fault him for pulling a pitcher "early."

 

Suppan was a tough call in this specific instance, but I like the fact that Yost seems to have been making his pitching moves more lately with the intention of winning the game. Just because it didn't equate to a victory today doesn't mean he necessarily made bad decisions. He doesn't know what each pitcher is going to do when he puts him out there, so if every pitcher on the team struggles in the same night, you're going to see 5+ pitchers from time to time. In this specific case, Philly has a very good offense, as did the Mets earlier this week.

[DougJones43]

I will guarantee you that if Suppan gave up a 3-spot in the inning and the Brewers blew the game, you would have had people calling for Yost's head as well. Once Yost made that decision to pull Soup, he played the bullpen out the best he could have.

 

I don't disagree that he utilized the bullpen well after pulling Suppan, and you're probably right that leaving Suppan in may have opened him up for criticism as well. I don't think the "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" argument is good cause for not still examining what the best move was. I happen to think that with a tired and depleted bullpen, and a 5 run lead, Suppan should have been given a longer leash.

 

At some point, you have to trust your starting pitching to get deeper into some ballgames. If a 5 run lead, worn out bullpen, pitch count of 83 and only 1 run allowed isn't a situation you will trust your starter with, what is?

[Ennder]

Its just a really hard thing for me to criticize because we don't know what happened. Did Yost come out there and Suppan said he's gassed? Was he throwing the ball differently like he looked tired etc. There are things that are happening behind the scenes that we don't know anything about. When he took out Suppan I was thinking that Suppan had one more batter and if he failed to get him out he was done even at only 83+ pitches. Now if he gets that out then Yost probably made a mistake, if the runner gets the hit he's taking Suppan out anyway and another run scored.

[Brewer Fever]

At some point, you have to trust your starting pitching to get deeper into some ballgames. If a 5 run lead, worn out bullpen, pitch count of 83 and only 1 run allowed isn't a situation you will trust your starter with, what is?

 

I wholeheartedly agree with the emphasis on "have" there. It's true. The Brewers have no other choice left but to see if the starters can start working deeper into games. It's obvious by now that the formula of starters going 5 innings and then bullpen for 4 is not working out. It's just too much of a workload for a bullpen. What's next, a 14 man picthing staff?

 

And to try and salvage this bullpen the further step that needs to be taken is to let guys work more than 1 inning at a time. Use 1 guy 2 innings and have one guy useless for tommorrow instead of two.

[RU Rah Rah]

If a 5 run lead, worn out bullpen, pitch count of 83 and only 1 run allowed isn't a situation you will trust your starter with, what is?

In terms of pitch count, this wound up being Suppan's second-shortest start of the year.

 

 

 

 

[Time for a Miller]

Yost was relying on three pitchers to do the job effectively. Suppan, Villaneuva, and Wise. Suppan may have been pulled to early, but when Yost went to the mound it did not look like he was going to pull Soup unless he said he was gassed. It was hot and humid and sometimes pitchers get tired before their pitch count would indicate it (Sheets had an 80-something start where he was cruising, but left). Suppan started struggling the inning before he got pulled giving up a walk and a hit before he started looking really tired in the sixth. Looking at the situation in a vaacum does not necissarily represent the actual on field situation. 5-run, 83-pitches, 1-run in maybe different from one day to the next.

 

Villaneuava cruised through one inning and then gave up a walk and a well hit double. I guess he was no longer being effective so we pulled him for Linebrink who is only a one-inning pitcher.

 

We had a 5 run lead going into the 9th. I do not know of any other situation more ideal to let Wise pitch. He only had one terrible outing remember. It's not like he was officially struggling. He gives up a walk and a HR. So we brought in our closer in a 3-run game to pitch one inning. An ideal situation for any major league closer, and he blows it.

 

Walks are one of the clearest indications that a pitcher is struggling. It's not as if the hits Villanueva and Wise gave up were cheap flares or groundballs through the infield. Yost managed the bullpen extremely well today when it was not the easy 7-inning guy, Turnbow, Cordero formula.

 

I think people who want to blame Yost just have to much love for the Brewers players. Blaming Yost allows fans to pardon anything that goes wrong on the field.

[Team Canada]

Yost doesn't care what the fans say. He better not be making decisions to avoid criticism.

 

That wasn't his point at all.

 

[logan82]

Yost was relying on three pitchers to do the job effectively. Suppan, Villaneuva, and Wise. Suppan may have been pulled to early, but when Yost went to the mound it did not look like he was going to pull Soup unless he said he was gassed. It was hot and humid and sometimes pitchers get tired before their pitch count would indicate it (Sheets had an 80-something start where he was cruising, but left). Suppan started struggling the inning before he got pulled giving up a walk and a hit before he started looking really tired in the sixth. Looking at the situation in a vaacum does not necissarily represent the actual on field situation. 5-run, 83-pitches, 1-run in maybe different from one day to the next.

That's true. He came out and talked to Suppan before pulling him. The inning before they showed Suppan breathing with a towel held over his face by the trainer. Kind of reminds me of the critisism Yost got for leaving Cappy in to long in Washington after he ran the bases in the heat. Seems like kind of the same situation except this time he pulled the guy.

[Nearsighted Views]

Yost's bullpen management has always been sticking point with me. He burns through a lot of guys in the game but has them warming up as well. Spurling was up twice (I think--once for sure).

It's the warming and sitting of guys I have a bigger issue with. I think that tires guys as much as bringing them in at times. And I'm speaking over the course of a season--not just today's game.

[DougJones43]

That's true. He came out and talked to Suppan before pulling him. The inning before they showed Suppan breathing with a towel held over his face by the trainer.

 

If Suppan was pulled because he was gassed, then obviously it was the right decision. If a guy says he's done, he's done, and I obviously would think Ned made the right decision to remove him. That's why I added the "unless there was something going on with Soup we didn't know about" disclaimer in my original post. However, if he pulled him for strategical purposes, then I would still say I disagree with the decision.

[Brian the Automator]

I will guarantee you that if Suppan gave up a 3-spot in the inning and the Brewers blew the game, you would have had people calling for Yost's head as well. Once Yost made that decision to pull Soup, he played the bullpen out the best he could have.

 

See my post above. Yost doesn't care what the fans say. He better not be making decisions to avoid criticism. We need our starters to work further into the game to lessen the load on the bullpen. He's stated as much himself over and over. The Brewers are going nowhere if our bullpen continues to be over-worked. In my mind that leaves one option. Ride those starters when given the opportunity. Today was a perfect opportunity. Either they lose this thing one way, ( an overworked bullpen continually blowing leads) or we lose it by pushing our starters and their failure to respond. At least with the starters there remains the possibilty of a good outcome. If the Brewers are going to win anything their starters have to be capable of going beyond 83 pitches with 5 run leads. Today Yost missed another opportunity to find out.

I wasn't implying that he was doing it simply to appease the fans... I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was comparing your opinion with the bullpen overworked to those of probably the majority of other fans who think his hook isn't quick enough.

 

I agree with you that our bullpen, along with probably everyone in baseball, is overworked. I'm all for riding the starters when the opportunity presents himself, but Suppan already let one run in, threw a wild pitch, and had two more runners on base... They had one more lefty to get out and then the top of the order coming up. Given the fact that Yost talked to Soup before he yanked him makes me belief even Jeff thought he didn't have anything left in the tank, for whatever reason.

Yeah, I do agree with you that the Brewers needs starters who are able to go deep into the game... part of the problem is that Sheets isn't in the rotation right now, and starters who on paper just about everyone thought would take the club deep into games just hasn't been getting the job done... I don't think it's a function of Yost's management.

[imaji]

The concession I am willing to make (the only one) to Ned is best described by the discussion at our table in Applebee's as the events transpired (alternating, starting with my buddy, 2nd line me, buddy, me, etc):

 

"Suppan just gave up a hit"

"I hope Ned doesn't panic and get a reliever up already, we're up 6 runs, even if we give up a granny we're still up two"

"Darn, another guy on now"

"Reeeelax, Ned"

"Wild pitch"

"Ok, maybe you get a guy up and warming now, but you definitely don't run to the mound"

"there's 2 away, we just need an out! That was huge getting Howard to pop out"

"basehit Rowand, 2 runs in"

"Still up 4, don't panic Ned...please...here comes Ned, DAMMIT!"

 

Here comes the concession...Ned clearly got to the mound, talked to Suppan briefly, and THEN signalled for the pen. Had he made the call to the pen while walking TO the mound, I'd have gone absolutely ballistic. HOWEVER, indications from watching it suggest that MAYBE Suppan said "it's just gone, skipper, I got nothing left". I don't KNOW that's what happened, maybe SUppan wanted to stay in. I wish I could get the truth out of either Suppan or Ned, but there's been nothing all season to suggest that is possible. If Suppan wanted to finish the inning and Ned yanked him anyway, Ned needs to be drawn and quartered. If Suppan begged out, he's a wuss, but I can't blame Ned.

 

I can, however, still blame Ned for PHing for Linebrink and going to Wise in a winnable situation. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Loopee]

For the record, after the loss I spun the "Wheel of Accountability" to determine the correct member of the organization to 'blame'.

 

The wheel came up with Melvin, because he did not take my 8th inning suggestion to DFA Parra, and as you can clearly see from the box score Parra was the losing pitcher.

 

Please everyone position your blame accordingly. I'd hate to be inconsistent with it.

[Fatter than Joey]

I guess the key was trying to sneak Wise out there to exorcise his demons, and then following him with Cordero for the third straight day.

 

Yeah -- I was hoping Ned would just put Spurling in the 9th and just not use Wise and/or Cordero.

 

Yost was relying on three pitchers to do the job effectively. Suppan, Villaneuva, and Wise.

 

This is what I have issue with -- Villy (IMO) seems to have hit some sort of wall, and until he is able to get some rest, I don't think you can count on him, it is not as if he will be able to pitch through that wall, the same goes for Wise -- In the post-game, Ned mentioned Wise has had problems since collapsing Lopez's melon -- which is painfully obvious I think. I am not a psychiatrist -- but I don't think people can work through these sort of things, in a high-pressure MLB situation.

 

As far as Suppan goes -- It sucks that he couldn't go 6 or 7 -- but it appeared to me, he asked for the hook and Ned obliged.

[Thurston Fluff]

but I don't think people can work through these sort of things, in a high-pressure MLB situation.

Exactly where are they supposed to work through them? It's not like other teams don't do the exact same thing with this type of situation. They can't send him to the minors without waivers and him accepting the assignement. A pitcher in a rut, regardless of circumstance, has to work his way thorough it. Wise is in that situation and Ned put him in a very good situation to get past his problems without taking a huge chance at losing the game. Had he or Braun fielded their postion properly it would have worked so it wasn't solely the pitching that caused the loss. It was the perfect situation to put him in. He needs to get back on track and the only way to do that is to get back on the horse. It wasn't a high pressure situation at all until he made it one.

 

Soup has been a 6 inning pitcher his entire life. A month or so ago someone was accusing Ned of keeping Soup in too long given he's been the most productive as a six inning guy. He pitched 5.2 which is about what should be expected from him. His pitch count isn't the only thing that should be taken into account. He is a control pitcher with very average stuff. Once the hitters have seen his stuff a couple times that day they may just get a read on what he has that day and his stuff isn't good enough to get past anyone when they have a good idea what's coming. I don't buy the over worked staff now either. They have a 13 man staff with several of them capable of going more than one inning. Parra may have pitched a lot of pitches three days ago in a start but if he was a starter it would have been his normal bullpen day so no excuse there. Really it all just boils down to players not doing their job even though Ned put them in a prefect position to do it.

[Fatter than Joey]

Exactly where are they supposed to work through them?

 

The DL -- and then rehab.

 

It wasn't a high pressure situation at all until he made it one.

 

I was really referring to any MLB pitching situation as high-pressure, especially in a game where a lead needs to be protected. I think he needs to work in simulated situations and then in the minors on rehab.

It was the perfect situation to put him in.

 

A game where the Brewers had a 15 run deficit would probably be "perfect" -- I wouldn't trust Wise with a 15 run deficit at this point either though -- Furthermore, I don't know if it is wise to burn a roster spot for a guy you are waiting for a game with a big run differential, to let him "work through it" -- It screams DL to me.

 

Had he or Braun fielded their postion properly it would have worked so it wasn't solely the pitching that caused the loss.

 

I wouldn't expect that can't hit/pitch well because of some kind of injury would be effective defensively either in a lot of cases.

 

I don't buy the over worked staff now either.

 

For the record -- Over worked is something Ned used to describe his bullpen recently, -- I suspect some of those pitchers may have seen better days as far as 2007 is concerned.

[JohnBriggs12]

"Has Linebrink ever been more than a one inning pitcher?"

 

Numerous times in his career, he's gone more than one inning. This situation screamed for him to finish the game. His was the freshest arm in the pen. He breezed through the 8th on just 13 pitches, and the other options, Wise and Spurling have been shaky at best recently. It didn't take much to figure either of those guys would create a "save situation" out of a 5 run lead which meant Cordero getting up.

 

The premise of this thread is right on target. This also points out the problem of 8 guys in the bullpen and a short bench. Instead of double switching that enables a guy who is throwing well to stay in a game, the manager keeps changing pitchers until he invariably gets to the one guy who's off his game.

[davego]

Guess my deal was using Wise in that situation. If he is going to work things out @ the Major League level, fine. Let him do so in games that have been pretty much decided. The Mets give us opportunities to do so.

 

I have an issue with CoCo in 3 straight games, but what do I know.

[DrWood]

my understanding was that the heat affected Suppan and that's why he was pulled.

[Thurston Fluff]

The DL -- and then rehab.

 

If he's eligible for the DL. I don't know how being headcase over a short period of time qualities him for the DL. If indeed that is his problem.

 

 

 

I was really referring to any MLB pitching situation as high-pressure, especially in a game where a lead needs to be protected.

In don't see how it was all that high pressure given the fact that he's been doing the same thing for several years in a lot tighter situations than that was.

 

A game where the Brewers had a 15 run deficit would probably be "perfect" -- I wouldn't trust Wise with a 15 run deficit at this point either though

 

True but the chance of that are so small as to be silly to wait for it to occur. If Wise had a history of being a head case or something I'd agree he should be dealt with differantly. Wise has been a solid player for several years and hwile he has never been spectacular he has been pretty consistant. He's the type of guy that Ned should give some opportunities to work through it and still expect less than horrid results. The fact that he melted down is evident but then so did CV, and CoCo with far less reasons to have done so.

 

I wouldn't expect that can't hit/pitch well because of some kind of injury would be effective defensively either in a lot of cases.

 

He isn't injured is he? I thought his problem was supposedly caused by his beaning a guy. I see no reason why his mental distress over throwing the ball would bleed over into fielding it. Brauns certainlyhad nothing to do with injury or Wise mental distress since he isn't Wise and Wise wasn't even in the game.

 

 

 

For the record -- Over worked is something Ned used to describe his bullpen recently, -- I suspect some of those pitchers may have seen better days as far as 2007 is concerned.

 

Ok I'll buy that to a point. But from what I've read Ned was trying to protect from overworking them and noted they have had a heavy workload. Which is why they went with a 13 man staff.

 

As usual fun to be your antithesis.http://static.yuku.com/v2//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif