Dugout altercation

[valpocrewsader]

This was wet-dream-on-Christmas-Day-time for the 50% of this board that doesn't like Ned. "See, he's even lost the clubhouse now, he's gotta go!"

 

Man, it's like Fox News around here at times, with people interpreting the incident in the way that best fuels their fire...

Sex, divisiveness, and politics. This post had it all!

 

My sentiments are pretty much the same as whoever said that this was a nice departure from the status quo. I miss seeing players' fire. Jeff Cirillo had a way of every once and a while getting fired up at a bad call or something -- don't really see anything like that from this team -- kinda miss the reminder that these are athletes hungry to win. I'm also pretty surprised that so many people were convinced that the "waiting on" comment was the same as the cliche'd "have to do it ourselves" comment. It's a very odd way to say it.

[True CryM]

I understand backing up a teammate, but that's usually done when confronted by someone of the media, or an opposition, not your manager/coach. This is bad for Yost. The players are turning on him in a hurry, and unless he morphs into something he's not, a motivator, he has no real value other than familiarity.

[Fatter than Joey]

I miss seeing players' fire. Jeff Cirillo had a way of every once and a while getting fired up at a bad call or something

 

Yeah -- I understand you are saying -- I would love to see an Ump get blown up, or some dude on another team, but I am very dubious that a "spark" ignited by 2 veteran players going after a manager who was busting the balls of a player that has yet to see a full-season will be a positive thing.

[Fatter than Joey]

Someone is really going to have to explain how in the world Ned Yost compares to Mike Holmgren.

 

World Series Titles Holmgren - 0 Yost - 0

MLB winning seasons Holmgren -0 Yost-0

Yost drafted by New York Mets, Holmgren drafted by NY Jets

Neither were Intentionally Walked as major league professionals.

 

That's all I got

[jaybird2001wi]

Well, at least the players are sticking together. I would actually give some credit to Estrada and Graffanino for sticking their necks out and defending their teammates. I don't know if the recent slide directly correlates with the managing style of Yost, but this skirmish obviously does give us a school of thought about what the clubhouse is dealing with right now. Since this skirmish was caught on camera, I wonder what is really going on in the locker room after games in which the Brewers should have won, but blown.

The fact is, we don't really know for certain if players have called a player-only meeting to discuss the recent shortcomings of the team. I just think it is time that a couple veterans stood up and motivated the team on the field and in the clubhouse. Although many people believe Estrada is a clubhouse, but Estrada has been on winning teams before and the same with Graffanino (both ironically with the Braves.)

In another dose of irony is that Graffanino and Yost were together in Atlanta, which people haven't mentioned yet. I am not sure about their relationship in Atlanta, but it does speak volumes that Graffanino would speak up against his former bench coach from the Braves.

Another interesting thing is that Ben Sheets assisted in breaking up the argument, which does speak a lot of veteran example and does have a high symbolic value since Sheets sacrificed himself since he is on the DL for the good of team chemistry.

But there are players who do get mad when they don't do well. There were countless times where I saw Prince Fielder swear at himself for not doing well at the plate.

If this reflects the team's attitude about manager Ned Yost's handling of the team down this stretch, this does represent a valid argument of whether the team should change managers for 2008. If I am not mistaken, Yost's last year of his contract is in 2008 so maybe this does leave a door open to a new manager next season.

But this team doesn't compare to what went on in the clubhouse during the Alex Sanchez-Ruben Quevedo days. I remember when Izzy Alcantara dogged a fly ball to right field and later him and Sanchez were laughing it off, the next day Alcantara was waived.

[Invader3K]

I'd love to say that this will spark the team and get them going on a winning streak, but how often do things actually go right for this team lately? It worked for the Cubs...which means that the Brewers are going to go into a tailspin.

 

I don't really think the Brewers are going to lose too much ground in the coming days, but if they start winning again, it's going to because the team is playing well, and not that there was a shouting match in the middle of a blowout loss.

[naivin]

This thread be designated the Official Wishful Thinking thread for those convinced that if only Ned Yost were replaced the Brewers will be in the World Series thread.

 

Its interesting that all of the sudden, Ned Yost has lost the team, the players are ganging up against him, and Yost has lost control. I understand the short spirited argument in the dugout between two veteran players and their manager provides amo for those who would criticize Yost after he discovered a cure for cancer because it took him too long. It is interesting in that just 2 days earlier the Brewers played and won perhaps their most hard fought game of the year. Couldn't be that guys were hot, frustrated and lost control a little. I guess somewhere between midnight Tuesday and the 7th inning yesterday, Ned Yost lost the team. If they win tonight has he found them again?

[JohnBriggs12]

Okay, let me preface this by saying I was at the game. I would not assume it was Hardy he was yelling at. If he was yelling at Hardy he was yelling at the wrong guy. On the play in question, had JJ fielded the ball cleanly he had one chance to get an out on that play. Where? At third base that's where. But Braun failed to take into account the situation and instead of covering third, he ranged to his left, leaving JJ no play anywhere even if he fielded it cleanly. JJ took his eye off the ball to see where Braun was and he missed it.

 

Rookie or not, Braun has to be aware when there is a force at third and the SS is cheating toward the hole like Hardy was. Braun should have been covering third.

[Ashford Lando]

Sure... maybe these things do go on all of the time. But, this one went public -- so that fact alone better spark a fire somewhere.

 

And to compare this to the Cubs? Let's remember that the Cubs didn't start their stretch until one of those "invovled parties" were removed from the clubhouse -- something that probably won't happen here.

[naivin]

I also have to comment on the "spark" that a similar incident provided for the Cubs (along with Lou's tirade the next day)...that incident being the thing that turned the Cubs season around is a myth right up there with Bigfoot and attractive lesbians. You know why the Cubs got better? The shipped out their catcher who wasn't hitting and couldn't catch, they replaced guys like Izturis, Jones, Cedeno, and Eyre, with guys like Fontenot, Pie, Theriot, and Marmol (you know, guys who actually hit and got on base), and Carlos Zambrano stopped sucking. Piniella hated Barrettt anyway and that move was inevitable. It may have provided Zambrano some focus, but did anyone expect him to have a 5 ERA all year?

[nikegolf6]

You're exactly right Naivin -- I agree 100%. Just ANOTHER example of people here getting too low with a loss. Tuesday's win sparked a thread asking if it was "the seasons turning point." Two days prior people wrote off the Crew saying at least Packer football was coming up. Now, they lose, two people are bickering and Yost has lost the team? So two professional baseball guys had a disagreement? It doesn't really have to signal anything. This is nothing more than frustration.

 

On a second note, I've seen a few people point out that Yost's teams historically "collapse in the 2nd half." Could this have anything to do with the players on them? The fact that they were awful teams? Or last year, injured? Managers get WAY too much credit for a win and WAY too much blame for a loss.

[Fatter than Joey]

You know why the Cubs got better?

 

Don't forget Soriano showed up finally, which IMO was the biggest reason the Cubs turned it around

[naivin]

When watching the game I do remember taking note that Ned looked awfully pissed after Hardy's AB in the 7th - a ground out I believe - grimacing and shaking his head. This was before any of the hollering in the dugout was shown, so I think it is somewhat interesting that I noticed that, and I have to assume Hardy was in fact the player in question. Again, none of us knows exactly what he may have been mad about - seems logical to assume it was the ball he didn't field, but we don't know that. For all we know Hardy was out 'til 5AM the night before, and Ned was mad about that. Could have been something in teh first inning. Could have been anything.

[naivin]

Don't forget Soriano showed up finally, which IMO was the biggest reason the Cubs turned it around

Excellent point.

[Fatter than Joey]

So two professional baseball guys had a disagreement?

 

Let's not understate this. Yost got into a yelling match where people needed to be restrained.

[logan82]

Yost has been doing this all season. The first time was back in April during a Brewers/Cubs game. The Brewers had tied the game the inning before and Villanueva couldn't find the strike zone. Yost popped out and gave his "one way conversation".

The thing is we really don't know what he is saying out there. He could be going out and telling the pitcher to look at the cute girl in the second row. Managers have said stranger things to players.

[nikegolf6]

So two professional baseball guys had a disagreement?

 

Let's not understate this. Yost got into a yelling match where people needed to be restrained.

But let's not overstate it either, this is NOT Zambrano and Barrett going to blows. It's two guys arguing.

 

Two days ago no one saw any drive, fire, or competition. Now they have an argument and it's a sign that Yost has lost the team? I can't wait til they play tonight so I can stop reading about this argument -- unless they lose.

[Rob]

Haudricourt was on 1510 this morning and said that Yost revealed to him off the record the player he "singled out." He didn't include the player's name in the article because of that but said it should be easy to figure out who it was. IMO it was Hardy.

[Kraft4a3]

From what everyone is reporting in this thread it seems like Hardy got singled out. If this is the true reason for the altercation then imo it is one of the better scenarios possible. I am a big fan of the young talent we have, but for too long it seems like they have gotten a free pass because they were "young talent" they could make mistakes without too many consequences. Well they aren't rookies any more and the Brewers are not in a spot to let players play through their mistakes. It is simply time to put up or shut up.

On the other hand it is great to see the veterans coming to the defense of their younger teammate. The youngest get the point, but won't be destoyed because of the support.

I have never been a big fan of the "player's coach" or "player's manager" the manager doesn't need to be their friend. The manager must to be able to say things players need to hear whether they like it or not. We all need a kick in the pants sometimes.

Sounds like things are fine. Imo it was a good thing to happen, but in the end I don't think it will have much bearing one way or the other on how the season ends. Just like I don't think it had much to do with the Cubs getting hot. They got rid of a cancer, but in the end they got hot because their hitters hit and their pitchers pitched. Lets not forgot the Cubs were a good team before the blow-up the bullpen was just letting them down.

[Bucky Rules]

Haudricourt was on 1510 this morning and said that Yost revealed to him off the record the player he "singled out." He didn't include the player's name in the article because of that but said it should be easy to figure out who it was. IMO it was Hardy.

I heard that as well, although I don't believe that Haudricourt said that YOST told him. But he said he knew who it was and couldn't print it. Since Hardy and Villanueva were the only two guys mentioned in the article in a fashion where it "should be easy to figure out", I have to agree that it was Hardy.

 

In response to the post that claims any criticism at Hardy was misdirected... well, if true, that would go a long way towards explaining the close-to-violent defense from his teammates.

[SeriesFinale]

After reading the J-S article, I'm even less concerned than I was before.

 

They're frustrated and punchy after a crummy couple of weeks...I don't think it's indicative of deeper-rooted issues.

[don1481]

Hmm... would a game of paintball help them out?

 

Yeah, yeah... I know... "what if players get hurt?"

 

I wonder who'd be shot at the most...

[aracko]

"close-to-violent defense from his teammates"

 

Dude - thats a LITTLE far fetched.

[DrWood]

why wouldn't it have been villy he ranted to? Of course, I think ned has been using him too much this year, so he would share in culpability.

[jlau20]

This is the first time since this yuku switchover that I've been able to get on the boards without it being slow as molasses, so there's nothing I would say that hasn't been covered yet...but I did enjoy this...

 

About a week ago, both of these clowns said the fans were in panic mode. Now they are fighting in the dugout. Priceless!