05/05/2004 - Milwaukee (Sheets) at Cincinnati (Acevedo)

[DuWayne Steurer]

Nice

 

Our bullpen sucks you know what.

[deeswan]

I have to think Melvin might be making some changes when Kolb and Capuano get healthy. But then again, do you really have pitching depth if most of that depth is no good?

[950opsLHcatcher]

Relying on Jeff Bennett in a tight game is getting a little old.

 

Help, AAA, help.

 

And what horrible managing by Yost in the ninth. He was probably trying to fake out the Reds by having Moeller bunt and then go to a hit and run, but Moeller should be doing neither. Just let him hit.

 

This game really, really irked me.

[PeaveyFury]

How is that dumb?

 

You're sidelining you're best relief pitcher for an extra week... it makes zero baseball sense. If he's going to be out through the weekend, THEN you put him on the DL retroactive to last saturday, not anytime sooner.

 

I'm sure glad that Sheets pitched that inning tonight, or we'd seriously be in trouble tomorrow regardless.... we've got Burba and Bennett for a little bit, so if the pen needed to eat another inning tonight, we'd have little or nothing.

 

Yeah! That was funny alright! Certainly shows the depth of your thoughts...

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

 

Acutally, it was http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/roll.gif

 

You're right: How dare I point out a valid contradiction in your argument?

 

Sorry that this debate has apparently gotten under your skin. If that shows the 'depth of my thoughts' than you must not be looking deep enough.

[rluzinski]

Last year our bullpen was not bad, but our starting pitching was awefull. This year everything is just awefull!

[RyDogg66]

Our Pen was not that bad. Kiesch and Viz pitched out of some tough spots. Our offense stunk it up tonight.

[tyguy20204]

I know it's a useless stat but I keep hoping for Ben Sheets to get the win.

 

I feel bad when he doesn't. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif

[danzig6767]

Watching Bennett i wonder if the guy will ever be good enough long term to bother keeping him here all year.He only throws in the low 90's and i he doesn't look like he'll ever be starter material.

 

I would expect struggles from a young guy like him,but even when he's got outs he hasnt looked very impressive.

[DuWayne Steurer]

RyDogg, when only 3 of the guys out there are TRULY reliable, I think it's safe to say that the bullpen as a whole sucks.

[JaNelson52]

You're right: How dare I point out a valid contradiction in your argument?

 

Peavey, you're such a dumbass. I was merely making a point about how a few pitches add up over a season, and using Sheets' numbers as an example.

 

You're sidelining you're best relief pitcher for an extra week... it makes zero baseball sense.

 

Whatever you say...

[danzig6767]

RyDogg, when only 3 of the guys out there are TRULY reliable, I think it's safe to say that the bullpen as a whole sucks.

 

Look around baseball,there are alot of teams with poor to very bad bullpens.Teams like the Red Sox/Yanks have great pens,but both those pens are about expensive as our whole payroll.There are others with a nice to solid pen,but bullpen woes certainly arent just a Brewer problem,its fairly widespread.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I agree Danzig, 100%, but it doesn't make our situation any better, just because other teams are going through the same problems we are.

[PeaveyFury]

Peavey, you're such a dumbass.

 

Like I said, I sincerely appologize for contradicting your point and apparently angering you. I don't see how I deserved the above, however. If someone tells me where/what I did, I will certainly appologize for it.

 

I enjoy my occasional arguments with David, as we both respect each others' opinions and conduct ourselves in a fact-filled debate, and we know not to take things personally and too seriously. I seem to have misread you, so I will refrain from questioning your opinions in the future.

[danzig6767]

I was merely making a point about how a few pitches add up over a season, and using Sheets' numbers as an example.

 

Let's not make it out like Sheets is some rare or evem fairly rare example of throwing to many pitches the last few years or this year.Even saber GM's who check every stat let their young pitchers throw alot of pitches.

 

Sheets was at 99 ppg last year and threw 3365 pitches,less than young guys like Halladay/Zito/Pineiro.I've never heard their managers or management called abusers of pitchers.Prior to tonight Ben was at 93ppg,but i do think he was left in a hitter or two more than needed tonight.With that said to extrapolate to thats a sure thing he's abused and DL bound is a big stretch.

[dman]

I'm so tired of watching ned piss games away, 4-3 lead in the eighth and you have burba in the pen and you let ford with his 8.00 era work that big inning. Ford is a ----bag and has given plenty of chances. don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya. Scotty WAKE UP you are killing us right now. what is he about 1-18 with men in scoring position. I could vent all night but enough for right now.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I didn't see anything wrong with leaving Ben in tonight. He usually doesn't walk anyone, so more often than not, his pitch counts are extremely reasonable. An outing here or there where he goes 20 pitches or so over his average isn't going to make a difference in the great scheme of things.

[RyDogg66]

Roco, what makes out pen bad is after the top 3-4 it falls off BIG time. I feel confident with Viz, Burba or Kolb on the mound, and even Kiesch has set my mind at ease after some 2-3 inning scoreless appearences. The problem is Ford and Hernandez, and to a lesser extent Bennet.

 

About Bennet - until he is the worst of the guys out there I say you keep him. He has been in much much tougher positions that Ford was in last year, and has been decent.

 

I'd send Hernandez and Kinney - and maybe Ben Ford packing before giving up on Bennet. If we can get two guys that are more effective then Jeff, then Jeff becomes the guy we put in for 2 innings in games we are up or down by 5 or more, which I am sure he would handle just fine.

[xisxisxis]

I enjoy my occasional arguments with David, as we both respect each others' opinions and conduct ourselves in a fact-filled debate, and we know not to take things personally and too seriously.

 

I feel the love Peavey! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[SoCalBrewfan]

Bennett's innings have certainly been more prominent than the usual Rule 5 pick. But I think a lot has gone astray from the original plan with the pitching staff...assuming that there was one.

[JohnBriggs12]

While they still may have lost, Yost did a very poor job handling the bullpen in this game.

 

Using Ford in the 7th was questionable with Kieschnick available who has been very good lately, not to mention Burba. But the biggest mistake was bringing Ford back in the 8th. He had Kieschnick or Burba to get one inning and then bring in Vizcaino for the 9th.

 

Then after pitching to just 3 hitters where he dominated, he pulls Vizcaino for Bennett instead of Burba in a tie game. C'mon Ned get a clue.

[shelmark]

Why is a Rule 5 guy in a tie game when you have Burba who has been pitching fantastic ball and can give you 4 innings or more? I would agree we keep Bennett but he needs either pick up a couple mph on the fastball or he needs to learn to cut it. No way an 88 mph heater that is straight is going to make it in the majors. I don't know where all the reports of him throwing 90-92 came from, as he clearly is not throwing that hard right now.

[madtownbrew]

My guess is that Ned is saving Burba in case if he needs somebody tonight to chew up a few innings if Obie gets blasted again.

[FVBrewerFan]

Quote:

---

Why is a Rule 5 guy in a tie game when you have Burba

---

 

That's the ballgame. Was this another Yost "lesson" ? You just have to make the best moves possible in games like that, especially when Sheets is the starter. Has anyone heard Yost's explanation about Ford vs Burba?

[igor67]

I'll throw in late on the the Sheets pitch count issue. Prospectus has some solid work that indicates average pitch count is a poor measure of "stress" from a pure numbers point of view after about 105 pitches or so the risk of damage increases exponentially. So 110 on a semi regular basis from an established pitcher isn't bad. 120 on occasion is acceptable given other justification, but every pitch over 120 starts to extract a large cost. Starts much over 120 tend to have spill over affects of decreased performance for the next few starts. An extra day of rest is not going to substantially counter act these issues. My concern is that Yost is 2-2 in starts he could have let Ben keep going. The first few starts of the year the pitcher is still getting stretched out something Yost realized, and so he had no real chance to abuse Ben in those games. Since then though... Ben has established himself as a horse, but not the kind of old veteran like Schilling and Johsons you can ride hard on the pitch counts. It should be a month before Ben goes over 120 again or unfortunately I'll have to agree with the assessment that he'll see some DL time this year.

[batman]

I wasn't online last night and didn't get to watch the game, but I listened to the whole thing on the radio. Nedley demonstrated almost all of the "in-game strategy" things he is routinely criticized for on brewerfan... he is obviously an outstanding motivator, as even David admits (! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif ), but he's got a lot to learn when it comes to strategy. I hope that Dauer and Donnelly are taking active roles in the in-game management, but then again I'm not sure what their respective philosophies are.

 

The team played well enough to win, but Nedley set them up to fail last night. It's too bad, and he deserves to get some heat for the decisions he made, but it's hard to get overly upset when the team is playing as well as it is right now.

 

{ off-topic

And just as a little aside, I really enjoy the contributions of Peavey and Jason (and David)... y'all always have informed opinions and witty comments that make the board a more fun place to frequent. Hopefully last night's squabble won't deter you from doing that... everybody has bad days and gets on edge now and again, so don't take it too personally. Brewerfan love!

}

 

~Bill