5/9/2004 - Brewers (Santos) @ New York Mets (Trachsel)

[rluzinski]

how about STOP batting like a complete fool.

 

My wife says he looks stupid wwhen he bats. I think she has a point.

 

To be fair, Caounsell has played SS nice and he's very patient at the plate. That said, his ability is irrelevant, when discussing what's the best long term for the Crew. Get Hall 450 AB this year and trade him!

[rotoherb]

The Brewers are third in the NL in runs scored. I don't think who's batting second or who's playing short is the problem here. For six consecutive games the Brewers have had the lead entering the opponents seventh or eighth inning and are 3-3 in those games. They should be riding a six game win streak or at worst be 5-1 in those games. The bull pen just hasn't gotten it done in the last week.

[DuWayne Steurer]

You guys talking about Counsell's stance brought something to mind.

 

Doesn't it seem like the guys with the bizarre stances and idiosynchracies are the crappiest hitters? This might just be a perception thing, maybe I'm way off base, but Counsell, Joe McEwing is another one, and I've noticed Gary Bennet has a pretty ridiculous ritual after most pitches too. Walk away from the batters box, unstrap and re-strap the batting gloves, take 2 practice swings, back in the box. Dude, you didn't swing, how did your gloves come loose?

 

Heck, Counsell even says he has no idea why he does that goofy bit, he just does it. If you don't know why you're doing it, stop doing it!

[gregmag]

BJK --

 

Every once in a while, you inexplicably taint one of your thoughtful, intelligent posts with something that really crosses the line. This is one of those times.

 

"The argument about Hall being the younger player, and being a part of the team's plans down the line is a falsehood, and virtually everyone who's said it knows that."

 

I, among others, made that point. Thus, you are calling me, among others, a liar. I'm mystified that you said that, and I can't pretend to speak for anyone else, but I want an apology. Now. Then we can continue this interesting argument in a civil way.

 

Greg.

[bullox]

Doesn't it seem like the guys with the bizarre stances and idiosynchracies are the crappiest hitters?

 

Julio Franco could really swing it back in the day. Just one example that popped into my head as I read this.

[bjkrautk]

Greg-

 

The posts in this thread are what brought on my response. Just as a reminder, here's what you had written in the thread on the subject:

 

The best reason to get Hall some playing time is that he is a young player who has a chance to be useful for several years.

 

I'm not even getting into the really important argument, which is "who cares if Craig Counsell is marginally more valuable than Bill Hall right now, because what really matters is that Bill Hall has a chance to be a player for the future." I'm not getting into that argument because I don't need it; Hall is a better player than Counsell right now. This is obvious. This is easy.

 

You're one of the very people whose comments raised the argument which I was replying to, even if you didn't want to start a discussion about it. (And, for the record, you were also the one person who said in the thread that Bill Hall was better defensively, but I wasn't going to single anyone out before.) So, indignation noted, but apology not offered (yet).

[JohnBriggs12]

All this talk about Hall vs. Counsell is masking the biggest managerial mistake of this game.

 

That was the decision to use Burba to pitch the 8th inning when Vizcaino was available. Isn't Viz supposed to be the setup guy?

 

Just because Burba had a nice string of outings (that ended by the way Friday in the 9th inning), he now gets the setup role??

 

My only guess as what Yost was thinking was that he didn't want to use Viz two days in a row unless he absolutely had to (which he did) or didn't want to use Kolb (even though his injury wasn't to his arm). The problem with that thinking was there was an off day today, and Burba went a full 3 innings just two days ago and wasn't all that rested himself.

 

Quite honestly, this team could have been 6-0 on this trip. Every game lost had some very bad managing as a major contributing factor.

[rluzinski]

The Brewers are third in the NL in runs scored. I don't think who's batting second or who's playing short is the problem here.

 

So is the goal of the Brewer's offense to score the most amount of runs possible, or to score a good enough amount of runs? My point is, if there is a potential weakness in the Brewer's offense, to ignore it is silly under ANY circometsances.

[homer]

Well said, Rotoherb. The bullpen is the biggest problem on the team.

[halfnard]

Yeah but...

 

Nomar Garcioparra

 

End of discussion.

[rotoherb]

Gee, and here I thought the goal was to score more runs than the opponent. Did they change the rules on me?

 

I'm just kidding you, but my point is that they are already scoring enough runs to win if they had a halfway decent bullpen to hold a lead. In my opinion, they'd improve much more by figuring out a way to upgrade the bullpen than playing Hall over Counsell. Scoring runs is only half the equation, and they are doing that successfully. Ben Ford has given up 37 runs in 39 major league innings. I don't care how bad Counsell is batting, having Ben Ford in the bullpen seems like a much bigger problem to me.

[Member]

The bull pen just hasn't gotten it done in the last week.

 

The disaster that is the current pitching staff cannot be blamed entirely upon the bullpen.

 

It would certainly help if someone on this team other than Sheets could go 6, or god forbid, 7 solid innings once in a while.

 

I'm not impressed by some of the performances I've seen out of the bullpen, but I certainly think they'd be less exposed with a few better starts.

 

I don't think anyone wants to see this bullpen exposing itself...

[RobertR]

To add on to what Chris was saying, no bullpen in the NL has pitched as many innings as the Brewers. Couple that with minor injuries to Burba and Kolb and you're going to have to have important innings sopped up by the 10th, 11th, and 12th men in the bullpen on a semi-frequent basis. Adrian Hernandez only going 4+ on Saturday certainly affected bullpen options on Sunday.

 

Toss in some late innings shakiness on defense, along with an inability to cope with adversity, and the Brewers bullpen also has allowed more unearned runs than any other bullpen in the NL.

 

Edit: To add on, the bullpen is averaging 3.77 IP per game, which over a full season would require each reliever to pitch close to 90 innings.

 

Robert

[xisxisxis]

I don't think anyone wants to see this bullpen exposing itself...

 

I for one don't want to see any Brewers exposing themselves.......

 

 

To add on, the bullpen is averaging 3.77 IP per game, which over a full season would require each reliever to pitch close to 90 innings.

 

That is one sign that while the Brewers have been playing great lately we may see some big trouble in the coming months as the pitching staff melts down from overuse.

[gregmag]

BJK --

 

Of course I made the argument that Hall has a chance to matter for the Brewers' future. Why are you bothering to quote it back to me? The fact that I made that argument is why I'm angry with you. The argument, for the record, is right. I never said Bill Hall would be the Brewers' starting shortstop. I said he could be useful in the future. He may be useful as a utility man who can play 2B, SS, and CF. There's an outside chance he may be a starting 2B, if Weeks moves to 3B or the outfield. He may, as scoop (I think; sorry if I'm misattributing) pointed out, be useful as trade bait if there's no longer a role for him in a year.

 

So, you jumped to a fairly unreasonable conclusion about what I said; you then called me a liar for saying it. That's what really matters here. You took an argument about baseball and made it about personal character. Should I be responding in kind, and impugning your motives -- maybe exploring possible psychological explanations for your constant, often irrational defenses of authority figures (Bush, Selig, Yost)? If not, I'll take that apology now.

 

On the question of Hall's defense, I appreciate the info you brought to the discussion, and you've convinced me to withdraw my assertion that Hall is clearly a better defensive player than Counsell. I certainly don't think the stats you cited PROVE the opposite, given that Hall's time at SS this year has been minimal and sporadic. But the most I can say is that Hall has enough defensive potential that he deserves an opportunity to smooth out his game at short, given his clear offensive superiority to Counsell.

 

Greg.

[Al the Thinking Man]

Ned has done a fine job saving his bullpen, at least not overextending any one pitcher. Ford has 18 IP, but he probably won't be here all year, and it's likely Adrian won't either. Give Yost credit for that, he's giving the "extra" innings to his least valuable arms.

[Al the Thinking Man]

Greg, those of us watching Craig play SS have been amazed. He has made every play seemingly, including many tough ones, even a couple superb ones. His range may be a bit less than average, but he's much better than I ever thought he'd be.

 

EDIT: Craig's ranks in MLB shortstops:

 

3rd in fielding %

5th in zone rating

3rd in range factor

 

I'm the first to say 22 games is too small to judge, but he's been better than advertised.

[mikerollins]

<<<

 

***grow up!!! He didnt make it about personal character he was just putting out that comparing counsell and hall defensively really isnt even close. Hall led the universe in errors while in the minors (he approached 50 one year).

[gregmag]

Mike, please read the posts before you stick your nose in. My beef with BJK is that he called the argument that I and others made about Hall's future value a "falsehood." That means a lie. On the defense point, I just got through conceding that what BJK said was substantially right.

 

I grew up a long time ago. Learn to read.

 

Greg.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"We're happy with Haynes' progress. That's why we extended him (his contract)."

 

Reds GM Dan O'Brien, after Jimmy Haynes turned in a 2-12 record with 6.30 ERA last season, and agreeing to pay him $2.5 million in 2004.

 

 

Quote:

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"Nobody loves baseball tradition and history as much as I do."

---

 

- Bud Selig....the man who added multiple, unnecessary, underfunded expansion teams, detonated the traditonal playoff and division structures, sold out Opening Day to be played on foreign soil, and made interleague play a meaningless addition to the baseball season.

 

Quote:

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"Are we trying to win the World Series this year?"

---

 

- Brewerfan rookie, bucksbeat

 

If we're not, then we'd better get out of the way of the other 29 teams who are.

 

 

Quote:

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"Doesn't it seem like the guys with the bizarre stances and idiosynchracies are the crappiest hitters?"

---

 

RoCo

 

Sorry, RoCo, but...

 

Carl Yastrzemski? Cecil Cooper? Joe Morgan? Rickey Henderson? Mike Hargrove?

 

"Facts make it that much harder for me to prove my case.... hehe, I'm gonna make a great trial lawyer, and a great democrat "

 

Brewerfan rookie, MachMeister5

 

Quote:

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"We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons. We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

---

 

- Vice President Dick Cheney on NBC's Meet the Press, March 16, 2003

 

Quote:

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"I don't believe anyone that I know in the administration ever said that Iraq had nuclear weapons."

---

 

- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, at a hearing of the Senate's appropriations subcommittee on defense, May 14, 2003

[SoCalBrewfan]

The argument about Hall being the younger player, and being a part of the team's plans down the line is a falsehood, and virtually everyone who's said it knows that. The shortstop of the future for this team is J.J. Hardy.

 

Hall is definitely younger. The future is yet to be determined, and there's no reason that Hall can't play a role in it, as a utility player, as a third baseman, or even as trade bait. I think it's incorrect to call this a falsehood and speculate about what others do and do not know...it's also not very nice IMO. Maybe that's just me.

 

To take this argument to its logical conclusion, hey, there's no reason we should try to develop Ginter, Spivey, or Overbay, since they occupy the same positions as the other two Big Three prospects. Let's release those guys or bury them on the bench and find some scrappy wisconsin natives.

 

Aside from this, we seem to have two points, masquerading as three: counsell has a better OBP, and he makes fewer outs because has a better OBP, and he makes fewer errors.

[bjkrautk]

Greg-

 

I thought, at first, that you were suggesting that you weren't one of the people who thought Hall was in the team's plans down the line, and that I was taking your words in this thread out of a larger context. Now that I have a better understanding of what you're saying, I apologize for my misunderstaning of the first post.

 

Is your argument that Hall should start now to prove that he has a future as a non-starter?

 

I never said Bill Hall would be the Brewers' starting shortstop. I said he could be useful in the future. He may be useful as a utility man who can play 2B, SS, and CF. There's an outside chance he may be a starting 2B, if Weeks moves to 3B or the outfield.

 

Saying that a young player can be useful in the future has always, to the best of my knowledge, suggested an expectation that they would be used as a starter in the future. Bench players don't have that level of value. Moreover, by the time Keith Ginter's current contract runs its course (and we would have an opening at either 2b or 3b, depending on Weeks), Hall would be entering into his arbitration years, so he is never going to be an inexpensive replacement option at second given the current makeup of this Brewers team. I'm fully ready to admit that Hall has future value as a bench player and a pinch hitter (since you can't exactly call him a 'defensive replacement'), because that's as much value as he has right now.

 

Am I misunderstanding you? (I actually hope that I am.)

 

As far as the trade market goes, I have my doubts about the ability to spin Hall into gold by the end of July, which is what Scoop suggested. A team isn't going to give up anything more than a fringe prospect to acquire a bench player. People have made the comparison to Jose Hernandez when talking about Hall's ceiling, but they then fail to notice that Jose--in combination with a veteran reliever (Terry Mulholland)--netted the Cubs the awe-inspiring trio of Joey Nation, Micah Bowie, and .... Ruben Quevedo.... in the season prior to his signing with the Brewers. Then, at the trading deadline in 2002, the Brewers were unable to give him away for a prospect....despite Hernandez being an All-Star. In retrospect, allowing the Dodgers to rent Tyler Houston for the stretch run didn't exactly net the Brewers a massive return either, and he was hitting over .300 at the time.

 

Moreover, trading Hall this year is to sacrifice most of the value that he does have, which is a number of years as a cheap, quality option off the bench. Even though I don't think he should be a starter, I'm certainly in favor of keeping him around while he's cheap.

 

Given your comments about Hall's value, I don't think that you're a liar. I do, however, think you are severely stretching the notion of future value. Since I don't believe in giving the blanket, "I'm sorry if I offended anyone" line with full insincerity, I'm not going to apologize. I hope that will be enough for you, especially since I'm prone to try to see the best in people (even President Bush).

[DuWayne Steurer]

Geno, that's why I said, "maybe I'm way off base, maybe it's just a perception thing....."

 

when I made the comment about crappy batters with goofy habits.

 

All too often something we see once or twice we percieve to be something we see a lot more often than we actually do. That's kinda why I covered my bum with the "way off base" comment. Just an observation.

[gregmag]

Thanks, BJK.

 

Now, back to the merits. I don't know how good Bill Hall can be. You're sort of setting up a false choice, by assuming his only serious value would be as a starting SS and then pointing out (quite properly) that Hardy is a better player, so Hall will never be a starting SS. There's an outside chance Hall would be very good as a starting SS -- that his power would hold, his plate discipline and defense would improve in the manner that young players' abilities often do, and he would put up, say, a .780 OPS with decent defense. I'm not saying that's likely, but it's possible; it's hardly a crazy extrapolation from what he has done last year and this year in limited time, combined with his serious growth spurt in the minors last year. If he can be that good, I'd like to know it. He still wouldn't force JJ off SS, but he might factor into the 2B equation, given Spivey's lame-duckhood, Ginter's versatility, and Weeks' need for more time in the minors. Or JJ could get hurt.

 

A likelier possibility is that Hall's future is as a utility guy. But given that he can play all three up-the-middle positions, he could be a very valuable utility guy, a 300-pa a year guy when you factor starters' injuries in. If that's his likeliest role, I don't think finding 300 pa for him this year is an unreasonable goal, and I think the place to get him the bulk of those pa is at SS, his natural position, where the Brewers are presently trotting out one of the worst players in baseball on a daily basis.

 

On the trade bait point, I agree with you that Hall probably wouldn't bring much this year. I believe I said "in a year." If Hall performs well in, say, a 3/4 time role for the rest of this year and the first half of next, he might become attractive to other teams. Now, you're right to point out that we might not want to trade him in that scenario -- but that's trying to have it both ways. If Hall turns out to be good enough to keep around, that's great. But if we follow your strategy, we'll never know, because we'll just assume he sucks.

 

The other piece of this equation is that Counsell is done after this year, if he sticks around that long. Thus, if we assume that (a) the Brewers this year should prioritize planning for the future over maximizing wins, because their max is about 75, and (b) Bill Hall has ANY chance to be valuable in the future, then the team should play Bill Hall. I can see how you might contest (a); I can't seriously see how you could contest (b), even if you think Hall isn't LIKELY to have MUCH value, which I can understand.

 

Now, if the plan is to showcase Counsell for a trade right now, and then get Hall some action when Counsell leaves, I can see it. But Counsell is showcasing himself into oblivion, and I'm not sure the plan is worth the cost at this point.

 

One more point. I like Ned Yost. I think he's a very good manager for this team at this time, and I think he makes a lot more right decisions than wrong ones. I've said that before, but in this debate I've been criticizing him. That's because Counsell is one of his wrong decisions, and we do a good manager no service by pretending he's perfect.

 

Greg.

[bjkrautk]

Just to point it out, at the current rate, Hall is on pace for over 250 ABs (The 'projected' line on his ESPN Profile). I have no problem with Hall earning an extra 50 PAs by showing an ability to go with the pitch and hit to the opposite field at times (which he is doing) or by drawing walks (which he isn't doing, although I'm admittedly surprised to see he's averaging just under 4 pitches per PA right now). Anywhere between 250 and 350 ABs isn't going to bother me, honestly.

 

Personally, I believe that this year's Brewer team should have a goal of that 82nd win, for the psychological value (to the team....and to the casual fans) of a winning season if nothing else, and I believe that giving Counsell a majority of the starts is the best way to accomplish that.

 

What does bother me is opening up nearly every day's game thread to read "Player X isn't starting, ol' Nedley is playing favorites again." (Greg, I know that's not you....getting that out of the way now. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif ) Sometimes, it's hard to distinguish between the 15-16 Brewers of 2004 and the 15-28 Brewers of 2003 based on some of the rhetoric that gets thrown around on these boards, and that does bother me. I don't think that any of the Brewers management is perfect (IMO, the Brewers should actually have five outfielders, not four outfielders and an infielder who could in theory play in the outfield), but I also don't understand how Doug Melvin gets all the praise for having a long term plan, but the man he picked to implement that plan "has no idea what he's doing," except for the whole 'winning more games with lesser-paid talent' thing.