5/9/2004 - Brewers (Santos) @ New York Mets (Trachsel)

[Kraft4a3]

I don't know if you can say Ben Ford "Blew" the game. Pitched a solid inning then looked pretty good until Zeile happened to get to 1st after striking out twice (once for sure).

 

That was probably the least consistent and worst called games behind the plate since I had to call balls and strikes for a little league game from behind the pitcher.

 

Brewers need to take the same approach in Extra Innings that they do in the first 9. Look to go the other way. It seems everyone is trying to drive the ball out of the park in extra innings.

[AJAY]

No fault of Ben Ford. Some bad umpiring, a broken bat infield hit, and only one solid fly ball hurt him today.

[tyguy20204]

The umpire was terribly inconsistent, with regards to both teams. It was ridiculous. If you're going to have an awkard zone, fine, but keep it the same throughout the game.

[scoop53714]

Its ANOTHER very winable game that the Brewers DIDNT win. They have to win games like that.

 

I am not big on Ned Yost right now. I dont think he is being fair to Bill Hall at all.

 

If Councell HAS to play, cant we at least stick him in the 8 hole? He flat out sucks as a number 2 hitter.

 

The minute spivey is back should be Helms last game as a starter at 3b. I am getting royally sick of this.

[mikerollins]

I'm not a big Bill Hall fan. I think Counsell is better defensively and obviously more patient at the plate. Until Hall learns to be more selective--I'm all for playing Counsell (OBP .330) over Hall (OBP .294).

[tyguy20204]

Bill Hall hasn't been given a proper chance.

[mikerollins]

The guy has walked 11 times in his entire career (yes it's only tiny pieces of 3 years), but Counsell can draw 11 walks in a week. Last year in 142 AB's he had a .298 OBP. This year in 48 AB's it's down to .286. Now the guy might be an All-Star shortstop someday, but right now I'd rather have Counsell (and his career .350 OBP) working the count, taking pitches, giving Jenkins and Overbay more looks at the pitcher, and getting on base in front of them, than Hall hackin at the first pitch trying to go yard. Again I dont know really understand how any blame right now can be put on the offense. They are 4th in the league in runs scored. They scored enough runs to win the game today. Burba's fluke balk really is what cost them the game.

[Ennder]

I'll agree with the others. While Counsel isn't my favorite choice in the world for a second hitter, he's much more useful there than Hall would be. The only change I could really see given the brewers every day lineup is putting Spivey batting second and overbay third, the brewers really do not have another player that can do the job of batting second properly, taking pitches, letting pods have his shots at stealing bases, executing hit and runs, dragging out the pitch counts etc. If counsell only hit .050 higher in avg he'd be a very solid 2nd hitter, now he's a sound second hitter that just isn't a very good hitter.

[batman]

Just because Counsell is a better #2 hitter doesn't mean he should play over Hall. I know this will come as a shock to Ned Yost, but the shortstop doesn't have to bat second. How's this for a lineup?

 

Scott Podsednik, CF

Keith Ginter, 3B

Lyle Overbay, 1B

Geoff Jenkins, LF

Junior Spivey, 2B

Ben Grieve, RF

Billy Hall, SS

Chad Moeller, C

 

Here's another one:

 

Scott Podsednik, CF

Junior Spivey, 2B

Lyle Overbay, 1B

Geoff Jenkins, LF

Keith Ginter, 3B

Ben Grieve, RF

Billy Hall, SS

Chad Moeller, C

 

Grieve could hit second, too. It doesn't really matter. As long as all the lefties aren't bunched together and the "good" hitters are at the top, it won't make much of a difference. Building a better batting order shouldn't be a motivation for elevating the playing time of inferior players.

 

And I'm not arguing (here) that Hall is better than Counsell.... this goes both ways. But the argument that "Hall is a bad #2 hitter" is NOT a reason to play Counsell.

 

~Bill

[endaround]

Bill

 

Are you sure there isn't a rule that the SS bat #2? Isn't it right next to the one that says a team must carry 5 second basemen?

[Ennder]

Nobody said they should play Counsell just because he's a better 2nd hitter than Hall... they said Counsell is batting second for a reason. Give the lineup that is being put on the field on a daily basis Counsell is not a bad choice for #2. He does a good job of putting Pods into scoring position so Spivey/Jenkins/Overbay can drive him in.

[endaround]

No he doesn't. He does a good job of getting out after Pods steal 2nd,

[batman]

Nobody said they should play Counsell just because he's a better 2nd hitter than Hall... they said Counsell is batting second for a reason. Give the lineup that is being put on the field on a daily basis Counsell is not a bad choice for #2. He does a good job of putting Pods into scoring position so Spivey/Jenkins/Overbay can drive him in.

 

Right, but if other players can fill that #2 "get Pods over" role, and Billy Hall can contribute skills that aren't available from another player, then what do you do?

 

You play Hall. He adds substantially more power to the lineup, a skill that Counsell doesn't contribute... It's not a tradeoff. If Counsell plays, we have a good #2 hitter, but if Hall plays we have a good #2 hitter (Spivey or Ginter, probably) and a good power bat at the bottom of the order (Hall).

 

And this is discarding the whole "Hall has a future, Craig is an aging vet" issue. I won't get into that, as others have done a fine job.

 

~Bill

[gregmag]

The #2 hitter's job is not to "get Pods over." The #2 hitter's job is to produce offense. When, oh when, will the dead ball era of a hundred freakin' years ago end in some people's minds?

 

As for Hall vs. Counsell, if we're going to make it about this year's stats, Hall has an OPS of .760; Counsell has an OPS of .624. Six. Twenty. Four. That is worse than pathetic. There is no way Counsell belongs in a major league starting lineup. Maybe Hall doesn't either, but he has earned a chance to try to establish himself. Counsell has no chance to be a useful starter, now or ever -- absolutely none.

 

I'm not even getting into the really important argument, which is "who cares if Craig Counsell is marginally more valuable than Bill Hall right now, because what really matters is that Bill Hall has a chance to be a player for the future." I'm not getting into that argument because I don't need it; Hall is a better player than Counsell right now. This is obvious. This is easy.

 

Greg.

[DuWayne Steurer]

When, oh when, will the dead ball era of a hundred freakin' years ago end in some people's minds?

 

Never Greg. Baseball is one of the most stubborn institutions in all of America. I'm pretty much "old school" when it comes to tradition, but change MUST be, or else the institution will rot from within.

 

There's still a vast majority of people who think OPS is nothing but a bunch of hullabaloo, and I'll be honest, as a fan, to watch a game, I don't need to know what each guys OPS is. I can see the Avg., HR, and RBI, and know what I need to know for the simple enjoyment of watching the game. I know Bill Hall's OPS is higher than Craig Counsell's though, and over the long haul, he's going to produce more runs. That should count a bit more over a guy who is capable of

A) hitting weak grounders and

B) bunting.

[danzig6767]

I'm amazed Craig ever gets walked,if i was pitching i'd groove him one fastball after another.He has the power of a little leaguer,why walk a guy who at best will hit a single??

[Hank Aarons Shoes]

Makes for good conversation but I think it's a minor factor for the season long outcome.

 

Pitching is sorely lacking. Regardless of Hall, Counsell, Hardy, or anyone, we arent gonna make a climb of any consequence until we have better, more consistent pitching.

 

The Mets line-up today was pathetic. That we couldnt win that game is frustrating. Put whoever you want at short, its really secondary.

[bjkrautk]

# 2 hitter or not, I'd still rather see Counsell in the lineup, as he's the better fit for the role on the team.

 

1) Everyone who talks about the # 2 spot being just about "getting Pods over" seems to conveniently forget the 60+ percent of the time that Podsednik actually makes an out. The second hitter in the lineup is still more about OBP than OPS.

 

2) Moreover, a good deal of this team's success has come from not making outs! Why should the team take consciously decrease the main reason they've been (relatively) successful thus far?

 

3) No one in their right mind can say that Hall is the better player defensively; triple the errors in one-third the chances does not the better player make. And, before someone assumes that Counsell is Mark Loretta revisited, he gets to more balls than does Bill Hall (higher RF...unless you can demonstrate that significantly fewer balls have been hit to shortstop in the games that Hall has played). Considering the importance of defense up the middle, I know which one I'd rather have behind me as a pitcher. (In yesterday's thread, I made the Hall / Jose Valentin comparison....and I'm still interested to see someone disagree with it.)

 

4) The argument about Hall being the younger player, and being a part of the team's plans down the line is a falsehood, and virtually everyone who's said it knows that. The shortstop of the future for this team is J.J. Hardy. Had the Brewers not picked up Counsell in the Sexson trade, they were prepared to give Hardy the chance to "earn" the starting job in spring training. The second sacker of the future is Keith Ginter in the short term, and Rickie Weeks long term. Relative to the Brewers franchise, Hall is projected to be just what he is: a utility player.

 

 

The Constant bashing of every decision Ned Yost makes is really starting to get to me....and I'll leave it at that.

[mikerollins]

bjkrautk

 

POST OF THE DAY!! I agree with everything you said and wish I could have portrayed it the way you did. Very very well done.

[danzig6767]

The second hitter in the lineup is still more about OBP than OPS.

 

Since when is it a rule the SS has to bat 2nd?

 

That .624 OPS Counsell sports is about as bad as it gets for a player getting regular playing time.If it was just a small sample i'd say give him time,but last year he posted a whopping .631 OPS,downright pathetic.In 400 at bats the last 2 years he has 16 extra base hits,that's almost hard to do it's so bad.A .750ish OPS hitter is simply more productive than a .625 OPS hitter,it's not even arguable.

 

If we want batters on base at the top of the order, bat Ginter or Spivey in the 2/3 slots and hit Hall 7th.

[bjkrautk]

Since when is it a rule the SS has to bat 2nd?

 

When did I say that it was? That line was raised by Yost-bashers....people too short-sighted to remember that for most of last year, the Brewers shortstop hit 8th in the lineup.

 

I don't have that much of a problem with the suggested Pods, Ginter, Spivey linuep, other than the admonition that at some point, Wes Helms is going to be a regular in the Brewers lineup again....most likely later this season when Spivey gets traded. To bench him outright, fully expecting to need a contribution from the guy later this season, just seems a bit short-sighted to me. I honestly have a problem with Keith and Wes splitting time at third 60/40, with the hotter hitter getting the extra start. Considering that Yost was moving toward that direction before Spivey got hurt (Ginter got 4 starts in the prior 10 games), I don't see much of a reason to complain.

[bucksbeat]

Are we trying to win the World Series this year?

 

I have to agree that we should be starting Hall. The biggest reason is that he's 25 and Counsell is 33. We're in a situation where we need to start seeing what we have for the future, either to trade or start. Hall needs consistent at-bats to show what he can do, let him grow as a hitter. The big problem is Hall rides the bench a couple of days, then gets a couple at-bats. I don't know many 25 year old players that can come off of the bench and play to their full potential by being patient at the plate. You ride the pine and you want to swing away.

 

I am high on Billy, mainly because of the Reds series at Miller Park. He hits the walk off homerun, and comes up with the bases loaded the next night. A 25 year old normally tries to pull the ball, he took it to the gap the other way. It goes to show that he can be a smart hitter that doesn't try to do too much.

 

As for the #2 spot I would much rather play Ginter than anyone on this team. I'd like to drop Spivey to six so he can drive in the doubles machine.

[igor67]

Counsell is not a starter, Billy Hall probably isn't one either. Right now the only thing Counsell can do is take a walk. That's nice, but in terms of bench skills I want to see that's not high on my list. Put another way how often are you going to want to put Counsell in as a defensive replacement? How often would you go the the man for a pinch walk and his stellar .330 OBP? Pinch bunt for the pitcher maybe? Hall on the other hand given the opportunity to see more major league pitching can probably settle into a Jose Hernandez type skill set low OBP, but large power off the bench with the ability to play numerous positions. Power is more useful in a pinch batter than walking, since the vast majority of pinch hit appearances are during not starting a rally.

[rluzinski]

While Hall is obviously lacking certain skills, he is young enough to improve. Counsell is what he is. While Hall won't be a starter for us in teh future, he COULD be for another team. It would seem to me that Hall has much more potential value in terms of a trade. For a team that SHOULD be concerned about 2006, it would seem a no brainer to play Hall over Counsell.

[scoop53714]

BJ

 

the fact that Hardy is the SS of the future is all the MORE reason to play Hall now. Hall should be showcased right now. If he gets hot and stays hot his stock will increase dramatically and he could be flipped for some other needed positions. No one is going to overpay for Councell even if he gets hot because we all know exactly what he can do. Hall is a bit of a question mark but has the ability to be a really good offensive SS.

 

With Hardy on the way, now is the time to showcase Hall and see what he can bring back in a future deal.

 

Besides all that, Councell cant hit. Here's a novel idea. If you are barely hitting .200 and your OPS is hovering around .600 how about STOP batting like a complete fool. Stop raising your bat 4 feet above your head and just rest the bat on your shoulder. It looks foolish and it ISNT WORKING. Jeeesh.