5/9/2004 - Brewers (Santos) @ New York Mets (Trachsel)

[950opsLHcatcher]

The Brewers will once again attempt to go for a sweep, this time in a Sunday afternoon affair with the NY Mets at 12:10 CT. Victor Santos toes the rubber for the Brewers in his second start of the year. He faces off against grizzled veteran Steve Trachsel, who is having a very good year outside of one start.

 

The old Lyle Overbay was 1 for 3 lifetime agaisnt Trachsel, meaning the new Overbay will hit two home runs today against the Mets pitcher. I guarantee it.

 

MLB.com Preview:

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[burniebrewer]

Buy plenty of snacks, folks. With Trachsel "The Human Rain Delay" pitching, this one could take a while.

[bucksbeat]

Hopefully Hall AND Ginter get the start today, along with Grieve in right.

[batman]

 MILWAUKEE NY METS AVG HR RBI AVG HR RBI Scott Podsednik CF .289 3 9 Eric Valent LF .279 2 9 Craig Counsell SS .212 1 6 Joe Mcewing SS .231 1 6 Keith Ginter 2B .265 6 13 Todd Zeile 3B .282 1 6 Geoff Jenkins LF .267 3 19 Karim Garcia RF .279 5 13 Lyle Overbay 1B .351 5 31 Jason Phillips 1B .157 0 7 Wes Helms 3B .231 1 5 Mike Cameron CF .247 6 14 Ben Grieve RF .288 3 9 Vance Wilson C .222 0 1 Chad Moeller C .238 2 9 Danny Garcia 2B .258 1 4 Victor Santos RHP .000 0 0 Steve Trachsel RHP .313 0 2 (1-0, 4.00) (3-3, 3.79)

[scoop53714]

Am I the only one getting really p*ss*d at Ned Yost for this crap? How in the hell is Helms in the lineup again? How is Councell in the lineup AGAIN?????? How many terrible swings before helms gets benched? How many butchered plays at 3b? If I were Bill Hall I would feel very cheated.

 

Why dont we go the whole way and bench Overbay for a few days to keep him fresh.

[mikerollins]

***Am I the only one getting really p*ss*d at Ned Yost for this crap?

 

<<

 

 

Hall does not play 3B. With Spivey hurt and Ginter playing 2B, Helms is really the only option at 3B. It basically comes down to Counsell or Hall. I really think that Yost likes the patience and willingess to work the count and draw walks from Counsell. It's wierd because every time I look at his average I wonder why he plays, but then every time I'm watching a game he always seems to be on base. As evidenced by Hall's atrocious .290 OBP. I think the way Jenkins and Overbay have been hot lately Yost feels compelled to have somoene in the 2 hole who will get on base. Not someone who can jack a solo homer.

[endaround]

You do realize that Counsell is not a SS and is in fact a 2B/3B? And the Hall is really a 2B? So the person who sits is Helms while Counsell, Ginter and Hall play.

[mikerollins]

Counsell's career splits at the 3 positions.

 

SS-138 (7 errors)

2B-308 (13 errors)

3B-212 (16 errors)

 

I would hardly say he's "a 2B/3B". He also has often struggled with the throw from 3B to 1B.

 

So basically you move Counsell to 3B (where he struggles), insert Hall at SS (where his defense is below average at best)...just to get Hall's .294 OBP in the lineup???

 

No thanks.

 

I'll stick to Counsell at SS where he's been outstanding this year. Hall can keep coming off the bench as far as I'm concerned. If you cant draw ANY WALKS AT ALL! then you better be hitting .340 to make up for it. He's not.

[RyDogg66]

Like endaround said, Hall at 2b, Ginter at 3b and Counsell at SS. I have liked Halls approach at the plate that last few games, taking the ball to rightfield a bit.

[batman]

Craig Counsell is drawing a lot of walks, but his on-base average is still only .330. That's actually pretty good, as the average NL shortstop's OBA is .309, but Craig's slugging average is a Neifi-like .294 (compared to .373 for NL SS). He'd be a good enough #2 hitter if he hit a little more and continued to take so many walks, but it's not like he's so much better suited to that position in the order than Hall. And more importantly, Nedley doesn't have to keep Hall in Counsell's spot when he plays... a lineup of Podsednik, Ginter, Overbay, Jenkins, Hall, Grieve, Moeller, and Helms would be nice.

 

~Bill

[endaround]

Yeah, better to keep Helms' poor defense at 3rd while getting his 271 OPB! Who knows, we might get his career OPB of 307!

 

I'd move Counsell to 3B mostly because the team needs to see Hall at SS and he has most likely practiced more exchanges with Ginter at 2B than Counsell, but in the end either Ginter or Counsell at 3B would work.

[shelmark]

mikerollins

 

Talk about selectivity in picking out your statistics. Why didn't you point out that Counsell's OBP is only .330, which isn't exactly sizzling. Counsell is currently slugging at .294 while Hall is at .468. Hall has had absolutely no consistent playing time which does tend to make one anxious at the plate and you would also not recognize pitches well with limited time. You also pointed out the career splits on errors but did not include the number of games those errors were in. C'mon, Counsell is a nice little player but Hall deserves more of a chance as he could contribute more to our future. Oh by the way, Hall has almost double the RBI in almost half as many at bats.

[mikerollins]

<<

 

****I sure did!!! The first number was number of games. The 2nd number was the number of errors. My point was that he has played a lot at all 3 positions with varying success. I was just stating that he is not "just a 2B/3B".

 

I am well aware that Hall's OBP is .294 and Counsell's is .330. I have no problem playing Hall, but I guess having Counsell in there doesn't get me as upset as somepeople.

 

The only reason i replied was in response to Scoop asking if "everyone was as pissed at Ned Yost as he is". And my simple answer was No. I'm not at all. The team is .500. Scoring lots of runs. And every day someone bashes Yost for his lineup. If the lineup starts to scuffle then youc an complain but right now Counsell and Helms are both in there and they are scoring lots of runs.

[bull2477]

Quote:

---

Like endaround said, Hall at 2b, Ginter at 3b and Counsell at SS. I have liked Halls approach at the plate that last few games, taking the ball to rightfield a bit.

---

 

Ditto, I couldn;t have said it better myself. This way no postion is considerably weaker, Hall gets the AB's batting 6 or 7 and Helms can discuss anything he wants with Yost-from the bench!

[PeaveyFury]

How many terrible swings before helms gets benched?

 

He's had two hits in each of the last two games.... you don't bench him now just in case he actually is getting out of this slump.

[endaround]

Well your stats ignore the number of innings Counsell played those positions. He played many more innings at 2B and 3B than at SS.

[homer]

Whatever happened to the old "Ginter in right field" line? Oh yeah, Grieve started hitting. When Helms starts hitting (and he will start hitting) I wonder who people will want to replace next? Smart money is on Counsell although Jenkins has been slumping too and I think Hall can play the outfield. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Dollarbill13]

How much does Lyle Overbay love doubles???

[BuckyTuba]

overbay! another double!

[MachMeister5]

Back to the ole Brewers... 2Ks to end the inning http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/mad.gif

[bucksbeat]

When Helms starts hitting (and he will start hitting) I wonder who people will want to replace next?

 

I think the point is, why is Ginter not in the everyday lineup when he is hitting (which he is)? If Spivey were healthy, Ginter would be getting splinters on the bench.

 

We can do without the power that Helms provides. Helms for his career doesn't have a month with an OBP above .308 until July.

 

I'll take Ginter and his career .357, .364, and .317 in May, June, and July.

 

We have to face it. Even if Helms gets into a streak like last year, Ginter is still better (minus the power).

[mikerollins]

If someone has played the following games......

 

SS-138 games(7 errors)

2B-308 games (13 errors)

3B-212 games (16 errors)

 

They are obviously going to have more innings at the 2 positions they've had more games at. All I'm saying is that it's not as though he has never played SS in his career as you implied by saying...

 

"Counsell is a 2B/3B."

[endaround]

Helm's career ISO is .178. Ginter's ISO is .186. Ginter has more power.

 

 

EDIT: The point is that Counsell has more innings at 2B and 3B than the number of games implied says. For eample Counsell played 26 games at SS last year. Normally that would be about 234 innings. Counsell only played 167. He was brought in for a few innings and replaced often. And so comparing errors to games played is highly misleading.

[brewcrewkid14]

What is Overbay's hitting streak at after that hit?

[RyDogg66]

In Response to the comment about not wanting to put Ginter in RF anymore. That has nothing to do with Grieve hitting .288 now and everything to do with Spivey being injured and Ginter starting everyday at 2b. When Spivey comes back, and we are sitting Hall and Ginter instead of Counsell and Helms I'll be screaming to have Ginter in RF, or anywhere for that matter just to get his bat in the line up.

 

Let me also add that some of the same people who believe we have a gaping hole at 3b in the system should recognize that Ginter can play 3b next year and have Overbay, Weeks/Hall, Hardy/Hall and Ginter in the infield.