6/10/2004 - Brewers (Obermueller) @ Angels (Sele)

[rluzinski]

Keischnick is SO overated as a reliever. He has allowed 9 of 16 inherited baserunners to score. Last time I checked it was the job of a reliever NOT to let inherited baserunners to score.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's alright in the bullopen, but I think Yost looks only at ERA and thinks Keisch has pitched great this year.

 

I took a 4 hour nap top watch this!!!??

[AJAY]

How nice of Ned Yost to give Dan Kolb the night off while the rest of his inexperienced pitchers were pissing the game away against the heart of the Anaheim order.

[DHonks]

Keischnick is SO overated as a reliever. He has allowed 9 of 16 inherited baserunners to score.

 

Yost has also said that he prefers having Brooks start off innings, so he's probably aware of this. I would think the only reason he brought Brooks in then is due to the success he's had this year and last year vs lefties.

[huntsvillefan]

My first loss since I started watching with you guyshttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/indifferent.gif

Yost gives me a new take on Frank Kremblas - perhaps he isn't as bad as I thought!

And errr having seen Bennet - you're really sure you didn't want Jason Childers? (or Matt Parker)

[PeaveyFury]

Not his best, but not bad for Adams. The hit batsman was really the only mistake, as the two base hits came on a grounder and a little blooper. He had some issues controlling his slider, but he got out of it.

 

Come on now, you're letting your favoritism of Adams cloud your view. Who was it that gets the blown save? Who gave up the 2 hits to allow the 2 runs to score? It wasn't Jeff Bennett. To say that Bennett is the goat while Adams was 'not bad' is pretty untrue.

[batman]

Come on now, you're letting your favoritism of Adams cloud your view. Who was it that gets the blown save? Who gave up the 2 hits to allow the 2 runs to score? It wasn't Jeff Bennett. To say that Bennett is the goat while Adams was 'not bad' is pretty untrue.

 

No, it's not. Jeff Bennett walked two batters to leadoff the inning. Mike Adams then gave up a grounder through the hole to Guillen and a flare over shortstop to DaVanon. He hit Kotchman to load the bases, but retired the next three batters.

 

The only real mistake was the HBP, which didn't come back to haunt him. Adams didn't pitch *great*, or even *good*, but he certainly pitched "not bad". Did you even watch the game?

 

If Bennett doesn't walk those two hitters and force Adams into the game without much time to warm up, those runs don't score. Even if we assume Adams got all the time in the world to warm up, he would not have given up any runs had the inherited runners not been part of the equation.

 

This was the worst Adams has pitched in his few opportunities thus far. I love him, but he's not immune to criticism. I think you're projecting your own love of Bennett onto me, Peavey http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif .

 

~Bill

[PeaveyFury]

If Bennett doesn't walk those two hitters and force Adams into the game without much time to warm up, those runs don't score. Even if we assume Adams got all the time in the world to warm up, he would not have given up any runs had the inherited runners not been part of the equation.

 

Come on man, you can't tell me you re-read that without thinking that it was showing at least a little favoritism to Adams...

 

Like I said, Bennett walked two guys, and it was Adams who allowed them to score. Bennett didn't pitch well, but Adams sure didn't get his job done either.

 

For the record, I didn't see the game, but was listening at work. Myself and all of my co-workers were completely in agreement with the way Yost handled the pen and made his in game moves (Grieve hit for Bennett, etc). The execution was poor and the result wasn't a win, but Yost did set his guys up to succeed.... they just didn't do the job themselves.

[batman]

Come on man, you can't tell me you re-read that without thinking that it was showing at least a little favoritism to Adams...

 

Yeah, you're right... I can understand that. And obviously, I do think Mike Adams is a better pitcher than Jeff Bennett. But if the roles were reversed, I can honestly say that I would have blamed Adams for the runs.

 

The other thing to note is that Bennett didn't have it at all tonight. He couldn't find the strike zone. The two hits Adams gave up were lucky... neither was hard hit, and they both could have easily been outs (and the grounder from Guillen could have been a DP). That doesn't absolve Mike of his responsibility for getting the job done, but the performances of Bennett and Adams were night and day.

 

Like I said, Bennett walked two guys, and it was Adams who allowed them to score. Bennett didn't pitch well, but Adams sure didn't get his job done either.

 

He hung a few sliders, but he didn't get hurt with them. The results didn't get the job done, but the *process* did. Adams got a grounder and a blooper... short of striking out those two guys, he did what could be reasonably expected. The fact that the Angels hit 'em where we weren't meant that those two balls were singles instead of outs. That's all I'm saying. At least Adams made the Angels beat us, whereas Bennett just handed them a pair of walks.

 

For the record, I didn't see the game, but was listening at work. Myself and all of my co-workers were completely in agreement with the way Yost handled the pen and made his in game moves (Grieve hit for Bennett, etc). The execution was poor and the result wasn't a win, but Yost did set his guys up to succeed.... they just didn't do the job themselves.

 

That I can't agree with. The Grieve move was good, obviously, but that's a separate issue.

 

1> Was Kieschnick ready to pitch? Apparently not. I don't know when he got back or what kind of emotional shape he was in, but at least some of the blame for his meltdown needs to go to Ned. That was a high-leverage situation for a guy who in all likelihood just got off a plane, hadn't thought about baseball in days, and was thinking about his new baby. This is really a minor quibble, though, and Brooks deserves 90% of the blame.

 

2> If you have Mike Adams and Jeff Bennett both available, which do you choose for a high-leverage situation? I'll take Adams, and Yost took Bennett. I disagree. He also didn't have anyone warming to begin the inning, trusting that Bennett would be fine, and after the first walk he got Adams up. That gave him only one batter to get ready to pitch, and Yost brought the hook. I can't disagree with yanking Bennett there, as he was obviously not going to have any success tonight, but he definitely rushed Adams into the game. Again, that's a small issue... the major concern is with the choice of Bennett over Adams.

 

3> He didn't use Kolb to face the heart of the Angels' order. This I won't get too worked up about because few managers would, but Kolb should have been the guy when we needed to face Guerrero, Anderson, Guillen, et. al. Not Bennett _or_ Adams. They could have pitched the ninth against the bottom of the order.

 

Yes, the players deserve the blame for not getting the job done. But at the same time, I'm very surprised that you don't take issue with any of Nedley's moves. Do you really prefer Jeff Bennett to Mike Adams in a high-leverage, game-critical situation?

 

EDIT: Good night Peavey, BTW. I'll be better in the morning, I promise... crappy day + crappy game = ornery Bill. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

~Bill

[PeaveyFury]

This is really a minor quibble, though, and Brooks deserves 90% of the blame.

 

He's been lights out this year, so I really can't fault Ned for throwing him out there for the end part of the angel's order with 1 out in the 7th.... obviously you may be correct in that he might not have been ready to pitch tonight.

 

I didn't mind Bennett over Adams when he was first brought out... obviously hindsight is 20/20, but Bennett has been pitching very well, so it wasn't a problem for me at the time.

 

I don't disagree that Kolb probably should have been used, as even I thought that maybe it'd be a good idea to bring him in after Bennett walked the two guys, but like you said, it wasn't going to happen, so again, I didn't really have a problem with it.

 

The other two things that Ned handled very well was his leash on Oby- it was the right move to send him out for the 7th, but he also got him out of there at the right time as well. Also, bringing in Vizcaino when he did was a very good move, and that one obviously paid off.

 

EDIT: Good night Peavey, BTW. I'll be better in the morning, I promise... crappy day + crappy game = ornery Bill.

 

I hear ya... today was one of my worst days in recent memory, so I'm cranky as well.... adding in a Brewers loss in a game they should have won didn't help anything either.

[homer]

Wow. It' s one friggin' loss. You guys are overreating just a tad. Over the course of 162, you're going to get a few of these. The Crew just took 2 of 3 from one of the best teams in baseball at their place. Be happy. Bullpens blow leads every once in a while - it's not like they were up 7 - 2. If it becomes commonplace then freak out until then, relax, have a brew and watch the Astro series.

[JaNelson52]

The Brewers took 2 out of 3 games against the team many feel will win the AL West and is a legit contender for the World Series.

 

I think if any of us were told this before the series started, the way our team has been playing, we would have been more than happy to take it. We're 1 game over .500 after a 12 game west coast road trip...most people (including me) thought that this trip would be the start of the "mid-season swoon".

[mls4]

I agree about the bullpen. I was begging for Kolb in the 8th. The problem started when Kieschnick couldn't finish out the 7th, then Vizcaino had too many pitches to go another inning. This didn't leave any proven dependable pitcher for the 8th. True Bennett has proven he is reliable enough for that situation, but Adams hasn't been around all that long yet either. So Yost went with more experience. Ideally Kolb comes in then, but you are still going to need Bennett or Adams for the 9th, so I don't have a problem with that. But when Bennett gets into trouble, it should've been Kolb. If he wasn't ready to trust Adams to start the 8th, why trust him with runners on? Then when Kolb gets out of the inning, use Adams in the 9th with no runners on. Don't ask me what happens if Adams gets into trouble in the 9th...

Actually it's too bad Burba wasn't available. Nice that he got a save the day before but was there anyone else available to close out a 12-2 game?

[igor67]

Alright there's an awful lot of hyperbole about our bullpen, but the truth is none of them are that much better than average right now. Kolb? common that K rate screams to me that he's been unbelieveably lucky this year. Most of the other relievers have decidely non impressive K rates. Only Vizcaino approaches a K per inning and everyone else is at about 5 per nine which is unimpressive. To rate anybody as clearly better than anyone else (including Viz whose HR proness kills a lot of the value of his K/BB ratio) is rather silly. Bennet was indeed walking on thin ice towards the beginning of the year then seemed to find some stuff and start King guys, to the point he could be evolving into a pretty good reliever (or not). Kinney may yet get there as well, but none of these guys are even approaching dominant, so I'm happy as long as everyone gets consistent work.

[brewmann04]

It exciting to see everyone getting mad a a blown game they are now at least expecting to see the Brewers win games unlike previously years.

[JohnBriggs12]

Yost's biggest weakness as a manager is his decision making regarding the bullpen. Bringing in Kieschnick in that situation fresh off several days at home with his wife and new baby and after not pitching well his last outing was asking for trouble.

 

If he was willing to have Vizcaino come in to bail out Kiesch when the lead was down to one, he should have used him to bail out Obermueller when the lead was 3.

 

As for the 8th, its a lot to expect Yost to think outside the box and bring in Kolb there. But that would have been an excellent move.

 

Overall, Obermueller deserved a better fate. He was sharp with his control and when he is, he is effective. That's not surprising considering he was finally working on normal time between starts. Looking back, his rather hefty ERA could be more respectable. In at least 3 of his starts, he left the game with a couple guys on and the bullpen has let all those runners score. That's 3 quality starts in his last 4. A lot of teams would take that from their 5th starter.

[Gormans Gofer]

I was at the game, and the only thing more depressing than either the bullpen meltdown or Spivey's DP, was the fact that in the whole crowd, I saw only one other guy with so much as a Brewer cap on.

 

In my bones, I really felt like they were going to get to K-Rod, but he got away.

The $6.25 MGD Lights didn't settle too well in my gut after this debacle was over.

[Mike2k33]

I'm pleased with the road trip. We didn't play well in 7 or 8 of the 9 games yet we come home with 4 wins. Yeah, we should've won last night but lets not go overboard. When the bats aren't hot, you're gonna lose tough games.

[cooprules]

To those who wanted Ned to bring Kolb in... When and why? I admit that I thought about it, but he's a one inning guy only. If he gets them out of it in the 8th he's not coming back out in the 9th and then we go through the same thing.

 

It all started with the walks by Bennett and it was just too big of a hole to climb out of. You can pick out so many things. Not capitalizing on the scoring chances earlier, the walks, the 0-2 pitch to Guillen, Spivey's double play (he hit hit hard, it just went to the wrong place).

 

I agree with not sending Bennett with 2 outs. You have Jenkins coming up with 2 guys on.

 

I say we just chalk this one up as a crappy loss and move on. It does really hurt though. Hopefully they can come back this weekend.